Ethanol, coming soon to a NSW pump near you!

mick_dundee · Post by **mick_dundee** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:16 am

Ethanol to be in every NSW car
New South Wales is set to become the first state to mandate the use of ethanol in petrol.

The Minister for Rural Affairs and Regional Development, Tony Kelly, says the plan is for fuel to contain 2 per cent Ethanol from September onwards.

Mr Kelly says the move will have many benefits for the environment and rural Australia.

"The time for talk on Ethanol is over," he said.

"The Federal government has gone missing on biofuel, so it's up to the states and territories now to lead the way."

"I've outlined to Parliament the Government's intention to implement the 2 per cent mandate to meet the desired timeframe, and we'll shortly bring legislation before parliament."

"It's also fantastic for the environment. It helps reduce the effect on the environment particularly smog particles."

"It also replaces the fuel we import from overseas. A decade ago we imported $488 million worth of fuel from overseas. Last year we imported $10 billion worth."

kellz · Post by **kellz** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:39 am

we already have it in wollongong.. there is one petrol station who was trialing it for the last 6 months or so...

i have used it in the car but wont put it in the bike.. its about 8cents a litre cheaper aswelll

and the car runs fine on it, this is a 94 honda accord wagon aswell, dad uses it occasionally in their 00 elantra and has had no compliants or issues...

mike-s · Post by **mike-s** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:46 am

the only problem is when the manufacturer clearly state they wont honour warranty issues if they could have potentially been brought about by the user of this fuel.

i.e. suzuki have in their manual that i can use 10%methanol in my rf900's fuel. if they suspect the use of 11% or higher methanol the warranty, which has long since ceased, would not cover engine related problems.

i think a few manufacturers refuse to cover any issues brought about by any methanol use. Two years ago they were crucifying stations for putting in methanol (admittedly they weren't discounting the price accordingly) and now they're telling everyone "tough ships, your getting it".

i tell you its going to suck a bit when i get my license back, suddenly i'll have this extra cost which will seem even worse as the prices have jumped (again).

ozx6r · Post by **ozx6r** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:58 am

some of the servos up here have been using it

Barrabob · Post by **Barrabob** » Sat May 12, 2007 12:31 pm

I actually used some yesterday a tank full of e1095ron pulp and the bike ran fine, If i get a dose of standard unleaded it pings like crazy and is pretty unrideable so i think its okay.

some of the other stuff like v power racing has ethanol in it as well they use it to boost the octane.

Neka79 · Post by **Neka79** » Sat May 12, 2007 12:32 pm

a lot of servos in nsw were using it before i left...that was 03....

weve had debates in here about it, 10 pages or so worth...

so what real benefits are there to the environment??

mike-s · Post by **mike-s** » Sat May 12, 2007 12:49 pm

i think the idea is "the plants are living in the here and now so help offset the greenhouse gasses before they are mulched into methanol".

I-K · Post by **I-K** » Sat May 12, 2007 3:42 pm

Neka79 wrote:a lot of servos in nsw were using it before i left...that was 03....

weve had debates in here about it, 10 pages or so worth...

so what real benefits are there to the environment??

It works like this...

...the aim is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from the combustion of fuels in engines. The thinking with ethanol is that the carbon dioxide released from burning it (ethanol's molecular formula is CH_3-CH_2-OH) was previously sucked out of the atmosphere by the plants processed to make it; it didn't come from oil, the carbon is which has been locked up underground from millions of years. In Australia, ethanol is produced by fermenting wheat (the stuff about helping struggling sugar farmers is a blatant lie), and the exercise of processing this wheat into ethanol for use as a fuel would be worthwhile if the wheat produced *more* ethanol than it would take to power the farm machinery used to grow it and harvest it, to power the fermentation plant in which the ethanol is actually made, and to power the trucks to get the wheat from the farm to the fermentation plant, and the ethanol from the fermentation plant to the servo.

If that was the case, the ethanol lobbyists would be making a big deal out of it. They're not, so I suspect it isn't. In other words, there's every chance that producing enough ethanol to pull a tonne of carbon out of the atmosphere releases more than a tonne of carbon from the diesel and coal burnt in the process of making it.

This is why I remain to be convinced the whole thing isn't a work-creation scheme for otherwise-unsustainable farms.

If they're serious about reducing the contribution of transportation on greenhouse gas emissions, they'd invest in trains for long-haulage and in light rail in the cities. The problem is that there are too many vehicles on the roads for frivolous reasons, not so much what they're burning in their engines.

Neka79 · Post by **Neka79** » Sat May 12, 2007 6:57 pm

I-K wrote: The problem is that there are too many vehicles on the roads for frivolous reasons, not so much what they're burning in their engines.

and i love being a motorcyclist who rides for no purpose than fun!!

woteva · Post by **woteva** » Sun May 13, 2007 7:08 pm

We have had 10% ethanol blend available in Adelaide for over 3 years. It is only available at the smaller Independant servo's and it is around 3 cents a litre cheaper than regular unleaded. The claimed octane rating is also higher. Normal unleaded is 91, Plus unleaded (10%ethanol) is 93, normal premium unleaded is 95 and boost premium unleaded (10%ethanol) is 98.

Neka79 · Post by **Neka79** » Sun May 13, 2007 7:24 pm

woteva wrote:We have had 10% ethanol blend available in Adelaide for over 3 years. It is only available at the smaller Independant servo's and it is around 3 cents a litre cheaper than regular unleaded. The claimed octane rating is also higher. Normal unleaded is 91, Plus unleaded (10%ethanol) is 93, normal premium unleaded is 95 and boost premium unleaded (10%ethanol) is 98.

oh yea...i knew that..but since i never pay attention or buy ethanol..i didnt really think of it..

Shifty · Post by **Shifty** » Sun May 13, 2007 9:13 pm

Through work I am priveleged to have a lot of papers and studies come across my desk regarding alternative fuels, with both local and international (primarily US) content.

One thing that I-K has overlooked (admittedly I only skimmed the thread) is that ethanol is viewed as a sustainable resource, and not just a cleaner option or a way of bailing out Farmer Joe (in my opinion, run with the market.. if you sell a product you can't make money from, then sharpen up or get another job... don't expect that just because you're a farmer my taxes should bail your sorry arse out). Due to the millions of years involved in the process, and the rate at which we are using them, the days of fossil fuels are numbered and if we don't support ethanol then the internal combustion engine will become a thing of the past... and we'll all be driving 6.25hp electic scooters and we won't have to worry about speeding tickets any more...

In small concentrations ethanol and other biofuels will have no negative effects. The biggest concerns are failing rubber seals and some plastic components (I would assum hence the recommendation against use in motorcycles and older cars running carburettors). As a general rule it is quite widely accepted that B10 (ie 10% biofuel) blends are perfectly safe - worth noting though that B15, B20 and higher aren't in wide use anywhere in the world (although many trials being undertaken).

Part of the bad rap alternative fuels have received is that they actually act to break down buildups and residue in tanks, lines and pumps and can cause failure when these dislodgements block fuel filters, injectors, etc.... rather than the fuel itself actually being below par. Additionally biofuels (not just ethanol) have flashpoints & freezing temperatures that are unique when compared to standard petroleum products, which has caused some failures in colder climates (fuel thickens/freezes in lines, won't flow, truck don't go!)

In small concentrations there are literally no measureable side effects, nothing that would take less than 10 years to come up and really in that case it should be considered routine maintenance anyway.

FUCK ME I JUST SMASHED MY LEG ON THE GODAMN FUCKING TABLE.

Sorry.

Out of interest I have spent a bit of time playing with drag cars running methanol both as a primary fuel source and also as a secondary form of enrichment or cooling with forced induction applications running standard unleaded as a base or even leaded base fuels like C16. They require 'methanol safe' componentry (specifically injectors & fuel pumps) because standard items fail within weeks/months of use with straight methanol if not flushed out shortly after every use. Certainly some development work to be done when higher concentrations are concerned.

Neka79 · Post by **Neka79** » Sun May 13, 2007 11:24 pm

Shifty wrote:
FUCK ME I JUST SMASHED MY LEG ON THE GODAMN FUCKING TABLE.

Sorry.

haha dont u HATE that...ive done it myself a few times...u clumsy bastard...

I-K · Post by **I-K** » Mon May 14, 2007 1:52 am

Shifty wrote:One thing that I-K has overlooked (admittedly I only skimmed the thread) is that ethanol is viewed as a sustainable resource, and not just a cleaner option or a way of bailing out Farmer Joe

No, I didn't, as per the following,

myself wrote:The thinking with ethanol is that the carbon dioxide released from burning it (ethanol's molecular formula is CH_3-CH_2-OH) was previously sucked out of the atmosphere by the plants processed to make it; it didn't come from oil, the carbon is which has been locked up underground from millions of years.

That doesn't explicitly mention that fossil fuels are non-renewable, but since anyone who subscribes to the theory that oil leaches up from the mantle needs their head read, I figured we can take one as implying the other.

In small concentrations ethanol and other biofuels will have no negative effects.

No, but they're also, to a large extent, the fuel equivalent of nutrition-free genetically-modified vegetables. The calorific value of ethanol is some way below that of petrol. So, by displacing some of the petrol, an ethanol-blend fuel increases fuel consumption by volume; you have to burn more fuel to extract a given quantity of usable energy out of it, with a tradeoff of the ethanol introducing oxygen into the fuel right from the off, in the form of the alcohol -OH group) for more complete combustion. That is a crock. Engines breathe well enough without the need to introduce hydroxyl ions you have to pay for.

Nothing wrong with biofuels; I just have a strong suspicion, which hasn't been eased by the readily-available information, that ethanol is a false start. The simplest option usually fails as a solution to almost any problem. So I suspect it is with the problem of a sustainable fuel supply and ethanol as a solution.

Throughout the world, ethanol as a fuel source began as a whisper in the ear of politicians by prominent businessmen. In Australia's case, it was a man by the name of Dick Honan, who is a personal friend of John Howard, a major donor to the Liberal Party and the owner of the Manildra Group, which controls some 80% of Australia's ethanol production.

I don't trust it for that reason alone.

Out of interest I have spent a bit of time playing with drag cars running methanol both as a primary fuel source and also as a secondary form of enrichment or cooling with forced induction applications running standard unleaded as a base or even leaded base fuels like C16. They require 'methanol safe' componentry (specifically injectors & fuel pumps) because standard items fail within weeks/months of use with straight methanol if not flushed out shortly after every use.

Chemincally, methanol (H-O-CH_3) and ethanol (H-O-CH_2-CH_3) are quite different. Methanol is a lot more reactive. Perfect example: home-distilled spirits. Do it properly, so the alcohol in it is ethanol, and everyone gets smashed and wakes up with a killer hangover. Fuck it up, so the alcohol in it is a mixture of methanol and ethanol, and everyone loses their eyesight permanently. Similarly, they'll behave differently if utilised as fuels.

the kid · Post by **the kid** » Mon May 14, 2007 10:11 am

[quote="I-KChemincally, methanol (H-O-CH_3) and ethanol (H-O-CH_2-CH_3) are quite different. Methanol is a lot more reactive. Perfect example: home-distilled spirits. Do it properly, so the alcohol in it is ethanol, and everyone gets smashed and wakes up with a killer hangover. Fuck it up, so the alcohol in it is a mixture of methanol and ethanol, and everyone loses their eyesight permanently. Similarly, they'll behave differently if utilised as fuels.[/quote]

Geez you guys have some crazy partys up there