target fixation

nobby · Post by **nobby** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:43 pm

As I've said earlier I do most of my riding either solo or with my son as company, if I'm with my son I tend to let him lead. He has the faster bike and when it comes to the twisties his balls are bigger than mine

One thing I noticed on the weekend that has never bothered me before was the feeling of losing my line when tailing him through the spur.

On Sunday I decided I would try to stick with him, but whenever I got close I seemed to fix on what he was doing and found myself riding like a firken dog. (late braking, over compensating.. you name it.. I seemed to do it wrong)

I have never done track work, so whats the trick to riding close but still maintaining your concentration and your own line?

p.s. I know it's not safe.. but it is fun ....

mike-s · Post by **mike-s** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:46 pm

i guess the only thing i can think of is maintaining your focus, be aware of what he's doing and where he is, but have your primary focus as the road.

Then again i've only ridden in groups and never done trackdays, so some others might want to pipe up with their objectional opinion

FrogZ · Post by **FrogZ** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:55 am

Mikes is right, you have to maintain "big screen" view
You narrowed your focus to his bike/back tyre
I was fifth in a line of 7 at a track day and ran up the ripple on the inside doing exactly this.
The actual apex was unsighted and every bike ran closer until I did a almost highside and was soundly congratulated by the two following who would have come off with me.
The more exhausted you are the worse it gets too

Taget fixation is the #1 cause of accidents.
90% of accidents could be avoided if we got off the brakes and focused on where we WANT to be, instead of where we are GOING to crash (and not want ot be).
Damn hard to drag them eyes away but, we are like cattle in the headlights

FrogZ · Post by **FrogZ** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:56 am

[quote="frogzx12r"]Mikes is right, you have to maintain "big screen" view
You narrowed your focus to his bike/back tyre
I was fifth in a line of 7 at a track day and ran up the ripple on the inside doing exactly this.
The actual apex was unsighted and every bike ran closer until I did a almost highside and was soundly congratulated by the two following who would have come off with me.
The more exhausted you are the worse it gets too

Taget fixation is the #1 cause of accidents.
90% of accidents could be avoided if we got off the brakes and focused on where we WANT to be, instead of where we are GOING to crash (and not want ot be).
Damn hard to drag them eyes away but, we are like cattle in the headlights.
Oh and the answer to the question is, dont go so fast that you fire up your fear reactions

FrogZ · Post by **FrogZ** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:58 am

And as for youth having bigger balls.
That is just lack of understanding of how much it hurts, NOT bravery

Whats the old chestnut, there is old riders and bold riders, but no old bold riders ??

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:28 am

frogzx12r wrote::

Taget fixation is the #1 cause of accidents.
90% of accidents could be avoided if we got off the brakes and focused on where we WANT to be, instead of where we are GOING to crash (and not want ot be).
Damn hard to drag them eyes away but, we are like cattle in the headlights.
Oh and the answer to the question is, dont go so fast that you fire up your fear reactions

as Frog sez

this issue with looking where you want to go
and avoiding target fixation is a topic
that is covered quite well in books like 'Sports Riding Techniques'
in fact
keeping your head up and sighting your line
is covered under braking...cornering...avoiding accidents
and racing techniques

Keith Code (twist of the wrist fame)put it well by saying track riders
or racers will have problems passing the bloke in front if they keep concentrating on him
...instead of looking at the road, the corner
the straight in front of him

Nobby buggered the whole thing by trying to follow
his son...instead of looking ahead past him when he got close

hth

cheers

Glen · Post by **Glen** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:23 am

As I used to tell students, don't look where you're going, look where you want to be going. You need to maintain your focus on where you want to put the bike and then rely on your peripheral vision for everything else. Takes a lot of getting used to though. On the road resist the temptation to sit too close. (it can be quite catastrophic when things go pear shaped)

On a track you don't want to be looking at the bike in front you're probably looking towards the bike in front of him or the next one forward.

NovaCoder · Post by **NovaCoder** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:49 am

I never suffer from target fixation as I ride with my eyes shut most of the time.

bonester · Post by **bonester** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:51 am

Yup I tell my students not to look at the rider in front of them, but past them to where they want to end up.
A mate of mine came off in a big way two Christmases ago up at Mt Mee. (He still is on crutches!) He missed a LH corner, went down into a rock-walled drain, which he hit hard with his body, and the Trumpy hit the wall and flung up the hillside above, hitting a tree. BEHIND him on a ZZR12 like mine was another guy who DID THE SAME THING- two guys in the drain, and two bikes flung up the hill, hitting trees. Luckily #2 was barely injured, but my mate is pretty buggered. (Despite good protective gear his foot was nearly taken off and his knee buggered up too) I was supposed to go on that ride but ended up working. Bloody glad I wasn't there. It has been bad enough to see all the pain and rehabilitation my mate has gone through. (as well as two years without a bike- poor bugger.) Good lesson on looking past the rider in front. Bloody hard not to look when they are running off the road.
When I first started riding (GPZ900) I had a habit of looking too close to the front of the bike, on the road when cornering. Used to get a feeling that I was going too fast, tense up and run off the road. Did it at 100km/h between Glorious and Somerset Dam and hit the dirt and drain at 100....didn't come off but was too shit scared to brake- slowed down naturally. Why I mention it is that a mate following me said that he was laughing so hard that he nearly followed me. Guess he was looking at the clown running off the road NOT where he wanted to go. Eye placement is everything on a motorcycle!

Colette · Post by **Colette** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:33 am

...and make sure you don't "do a Yappa" either, by fixating on a female rider's arse

MrStompy · Post by **MrStompy** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:36 am

so when you are looking through the corner - what are you looking at?
the road? a marker near the road?

Do you scan back and forwards with your eyes checking the road in front of you?
i seem to be doing that and i reckon that is whats stuffing me up cause im too slow at it.

my biggest problem now is that i wont commit to a corner.
the guys i ride with leave me for dead as soon as we get into twisty stuff with corners you cant see completely around. eg old pacific highway etc
they seem to be able to just go around them at any speed where as all i can see is rock walls and zero run off area.
so i freak out and slow down before getting in the turn.
then on the exit of the corner i realise what a sook i was and i should of hit it harder

when we are on corners (no matter how tight) that i can see through i can keep right with them and often put the pressure on them.

ty · Post by ty » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:53 am

MrStompy wrote:my biggest problem now is that i wont commit to a corner.
the guys i ride with leave me for dead as soon as we get into twisty stuff with corners you cant see completely around. eg old pacific highway etc
they seem to be able to just go around them at any speed where as all i can see is rock walls and zero run off area.
so i freak out and slow down before getting in the turn.

Do NOT be embarrassed by this. Always ride to YOUR limits not theirs.
When you become familiar with the road and it's corners you can begin to go a bit faster as you know what the turn is doing. However, you never know what's going to pop up.

Going fast on the twisties is a combination of potentially riding a bit beyond your visibility, but trusting/hoping you'll have time and skill to react to anything that pops up.
You improve your visibility as much as possible by the line you take - enter the corner from the outside of your lane and aim to exit in the middle of your lane. This is the line they teach in the P's course and the line most Advanced riding courses will teach too - unless they're focussed on track riding.
You improve your skill by riding more often and taking the opportunity to go on advanced courses where possible, or asking other riders for tips.

The ability to go fast in the twisties will come with time - familiarity with the road, familiarity with your bike, and improvement in ability. Don't rush it just to save face.

EDIT: If your mates are nice enough they should hold back a bit sometimes so they're riding at YOUR pace, slowing building on that to push you a little bit - something achievable to aim for. Finding someone who'll do this for you is a great way to improve.
ty

ty · Post by ty » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:59 am

MrStompy wrote:so when you are looking through the corner - what are you looking at?
the road? a marker near the road?

I don't particularly look AT any one thing - I'm scanning the road always with my peripheral vision.
I kind of point my head, and therefore my focus, at or just beyond the visible exit of the turn. This seems to work for the most part. On some tighter corners (when I'm familiar with them) I've noticed my focus is kind of directed into the shrub/cliff on the inside of the corner (mostly left-handers) as that seems to help me keep the tighter line.
I recommend using the exit or just beyond the exit initially though - I'm not sure my 'tight-line-focus' is necessarily the right thing to do

ty

Nanna10r · Post by **Nanna10r** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:50 am

Like others have said I scan the verge of the road as it appears as you get closer well from there back to about 10m in front of my scoot along the line of the road i intend to ride.
Let your peripheral vision take care of the rest, I also use the voiceover in my head with "eyes up", "soft hands" & "be smooth".

When I'm following another scoot closely I play the "over & under Game", where by i try to take a wider entry & use a shallower Exit then the other rider. It not only stops me target fixating but also gives an escape route if they "drop the ball" & have a moment or run off.

Mind you some people are a hell of a lot easier to follow then others. I wont push from behind if they have a moment I'll back off as to not put pressure on them & wait for an opportunity to get past.

nobby · Post by **nobby** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:57 am

Guys .. thanks heaps for the experienced replies..this is what I like about KSRC.. you guys actually ride your bikes..

Thinking about it now I was trying to follow his line .. (in fact I'm guilty of stating that he is a bloody good rider and I would follow his line into a corner anytime)

and yeah your right, fear reaction did take over.... what was supposed to be a bit of fun .. turned into 15 minutes of nerve racking and exhausting riding.

post script: my son is a good rider but he's a bad judge of motorbikes (he has decided to keep his R1 and not buy the zx10r)