Pulled by the cops :(

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aardvark
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Post by aardvark »

I-K wrote:
Grunt06GPX wrote:What acctual proof of the offence is there, is it just his word against yours?
In NSW and the ACT, if they don't have radar, and you let them know that you've noticed that, the fine you were about to get miraculously turns into a warning
I've handed out fines based on estimated speed. If ya want to go to court over my ability to estimate speed, then I'm up for it. I monitor the speed of hundreds of cars every day!

I like to play this little game when I'm doing some laser work. I call it, guess the speed before I pull the the trigger. I'm never more than 2 or 3 kays out.
thewonderer
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Post by thewonderer »

phew... that's not so bad being able to serve both suspensions at the sametime.... thanx for the heads up on that AneemA. Only bummer is that the points will push me to 18 points total and that will automatically add another 4 months on top.. so 10 months.. luckily off to UK for 3 months in a couple of weeks!!!

Wonder what to go is with taking the bike and car of the road tax....

Does the ban affect both car and bike or just bike (wishful thinking i know :? )

As for the fine, well time for some overtime on the contract i reckon.

It sounds to me like you can goto court, but if the judge doesn't buy it, or just doesn't like the speed you were doing in the 1st place (140kph was what the cop guessed I was doing as he was followed me) did not admit to any speed up there. I said i was looking at the road not the speedo (as you would). Risks are the judge could give a hasher penalty.

Now if I was Mr Beattie, I'd open up a Nuremburg ring for everyone to come along and pay to have a blast at a fair price...

Thanx to everyone for the vote of sympathy and support and advice. Appreciate it...

Will keep you guys posted on how things progress
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Post by thewonderer »

PS - off topic, but not all of us are lucky enough to have cable...

if n e 1 wants the torrent for World Superbikes Monza race just send me a PM and I'll send you the link :)
elrond
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Post by elrond »

You're going to cop both of those outrageous fines on the chin!?!?! what are you mad!??!

OK here's how I had my 200 in a 100 zone cancelled:

Explained the circumstances to my legal friend (cop 'heard' me speeding - no radar gun - I never admitted speeding or what speed i was doing).

You need to draft a letter to the boss of the guy who's booked you's deparment (find out who this is - it'll be the <some area> traffic branch i'd say)

it should go something like this:

Dear Sir/Madam
Infringement No. < # >

I refer to above mentioned infringement notice which was issued to me on <date> (copy enclosed).

I deny the alleged facts leading to the issue of this notice.

The purpose of this letter is to advise you that at no time, was any statutory enabled device engaged to detect the alleged speed noted on the infringement notice.

I advise that in light of this lack of evidence to support the infringement notice that I am considering having the matter dealt with by the courts.

I suggest that the allegation is unsupportable on the evidence explained at the time of issue.

I respectfully request that you review the facts of this matter with the issuing officer to avoid unnecessary costs, disposal of time and congestion of the court systems.

If I have not received your reply in this matter on or before <date>, I will be electing to have this matter dealt with by a court. I advise that at such time I may tender this letter to the effect of the communication contained herein.

I await your reply.
Yours sincerely
<name>

------------
It's important you don't give away your plan of attack if they decide to take you to court but it is important to point out the reason you are contesting it (i.e. this guy had no statutory enabled device)

This letter will suspend your infringements until the cops have reviewed the evidence and they will do 1 of 2 things:

1) cancel the infringment - its not worth taking it to court because you're likely to win
2) reissue the infringement - you will recieve in the mail reissues of the infringements you contested and will have another 28 days to pay or elect for court hearing.

You're circumstances are different to mine but thats definitely worth a shot ^^

There is case-based law that a guy who even got done by a radar gun got off because he successfully argued the cop could not have accurately repositioned the gun in time after pinging previous vehicles to get an accurate read on him - so some guy saying "you were doing x" with nothing but guestimates has shit.

Get some legal advice :)

--------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: NOT LEGAL ADVICE ^_^
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Post by Grunt06GPX »

aardvark,
Thats great that in THEORY you MIGHT be talented enough to magically determine speeds without the use of electronic equipment, but magic determination of speed isn't evidence and leads to there being reasonable doubt of the offence even occuring.

My client might have appeared to be speeding, but my client was not speeding, there is no solid evidence of him speeding, just an opinion of a single officer parked in a stationary position giving at best an estimate of what speed he might have been traveling at in the time of the first infraction.

The officer in question threatened my client, stating"turn of that bike or I'll knock you off it!". This unprofessional conduct seriously questions this particular officers credibility and professionalism, questioning if he should be able to establish precision details such as the speed of a moving vehicle alone without the assistance of electronic radar equipment.

The officer also claims to have matched the speed of my client during the second infraction, matching the speed of my client does not give an adequate indication of the speed my client was traveling at the time. As stated there is reasonable doubt in the practice of the officer in determining my clients speed as well as doubt of the abilities of this officer shown through his lack of respect for citizens he serves and poor highly unprofessional conduct when directing my client to leave the road.

^Alot of doubt there.
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Post by elrond »

Don't attack the cops credibility.

BAD idea.

present the facts and thats it - inflaming the situation by questioning the conduct of the police officer is only going to make them come down on you harder

do you want to get the fine cancelled or have the moral victory here? -_-

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NOT LEGAL ADVICE ^_^
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Post by I-K »

aardvark wrote:
I-K wrote:In NSW and the ACT, if they don't have radar, and you let them know that you've noticed that, the fine you were about to get miraculously turns into a warning
I've handed out fines based on estimated speed. If ya want to go to court over my ability to estimate speed, then I'm up for it.
You might be... the half dozen or so cops on who the tactic I outline above worked for me obviously weren't...
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Post by Grunt06GPX »

He did threaten him though, ofcourse this is his word against the police officers word, but still. You need to carry a mp3 w/ record function around to catch stuff like that.

If you could prove the threat from the police officer that might or might not be good depending on the magistrate. Proof of that kind of conduct can't really be ignored once its in the open, police might think they can threaten violence, it only can if they get away with it silently.

The officer might not have been in the state of mind at the time to make a accurate decision based on his obvious anger at the time as shown when he threatened to maliciously injure my client and his property with no prior provocation from my client.

It'd be nice to have both victories.
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Post by Barrabob »

Aneema several phonne calls to the dept of transport regarding the status of my licence shows that infact after a six month suspension I have one point and i was a taxi driver then and a courier driver now.

Although both suspensions should be served concurrently(yes thats what i think should have happened) they said i had to take the point for 12 months option to go to court which i did.

Once i did that i am on the 12 month option but going to court for the 40kph over which i lost and at the end of the period i am back on that 1 point option.

If i loose my point i will go back to the appeals and kick and scream somewhat but the bike is staying in the garage for a while because it isnt a debadged black 12r.

Might have to do a ghostrider otherwise. :shock:
If I rode my bike at the speed of light, what would happen when I switched on its headlights?

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thewonderer
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Post by thewonderer »

elrond... i like that legal letter and dont want to lie down and take it on the chin... I am just concerned that they could turn 'nasty' and try and increase the fine/penatlies (can this be done... i don't know).

The copper may well say to his boss when he receives the letter...

Well boss I heard and saw him on road A I was on the otherside of the road and it was quite dark. I gave pursuit as I knew he was going faster than 70... as I followed him he accelerated onto the next road and was going at my best guess easily over 140... but I did match his speed at 140 while i was chasing him. He stopped at the lights. I believed he was trying to get away from me, hence the angry verbale comments about him getting of his bike. As far as I'm concerned he should be banned for longer and taken to courts as I went easy on him when i realised he had no clue i was pursuing him.

If that letter still holds weight, i reckon i could get the 1st road infringment squashed but not the 2nd due to him 'matching my speed'.

I guess, as long as nothing can get worse than what it has already by sending that letter to his boss, then i would go for that.

The only other thing which could make things difficult is that i will be out of the country in 3 weeks for 3 months. Luckily the neighbour is cool with collecting and opening my mail. So no matter what the reply is, I should be able to act on it.

Thank God there is some hope out there!!!
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Post by Grunt06GPX »

thewonderer see a solicitor asap about the notices with a copy of elronds letter edited to suit your situation and see what the solicitor thinks.

If it goes to court a magistrate can do anything within a certain scope really so theres the chance of it becoming worse if u act on the situation instead of just taking it as is, at the same time theres equal chance you might get a more favourable account and thats what the solicitor will help you weigh up, the risk - reward of your situation.
I was on the otherside of the road and it was quite dark
He was looking in the direction you were traveling while it was dark giving him no point of reference to be able to determine your speed and his judgement of distance would be obscured by only being able to see the headlight of your vehicle.
I gave pursuit as I knew he was going faster than 70
He cant say he KNOWS you were doing faster then 70, in his opinion he thought you were doing more then 70. Theres no evidence to support him knowing you did anything against the law and no reason to follow you.
my best guess easily over 140
His best guess isn't worth the paper he can write it on.
but I did match his speed at 140
He matched the speed in his opinion he thought you were doing that he has no evidence of.
He stopped at the lights.
You stoped at the lights proving you obviously werent involved in a chase or trying to avoid the police because you were breaking the law and because you had done nothing wrong you had no reason to run from the police and its proven by the fact that you stoped at the lights. You were doing nothing wrong, why would you need to avoid the police?
I believed he was trying to get away from me
^ Refer above, evidence shows the opposite, you did not try to get away from him.
hence the angry verbale comments about him getting of his bike
At no point is a police officer aloud to threaten physical violence unless there is due reason, you did not provoke him verbally or physically. He threatened you and your property without reason, breaking the law himself.
As far as I'm concerned he should be banned for longer
Police officers are not entitled to make those kind of decisions, police are there to enforce the laws and catch people breaking laws, its the courts place to interpret the laws and make decisions. He can only write a ticket for the offence as it stands automatically within the legislation, x km over limit = y point loss and z fine.
i realised he had no clue i was pursuing him
Because you were doing nothing wrong, there was no reason for him to pursue you.

See what Im getting at, emphasise you did nothing wrong at all times, its what a barrister will do. Theres no evidence of anything occuring you did nothing as far as the legal system is concerned if there isnt evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

Basically edit the letter to meet your situation, get the solicitors opinion on the situation, then show him the letter if he thinks you can challenge it otherwise forget about the letter altogether if the solicitor doesnt think its wise to challenge the infringments, if the solicitor think you have a case, get the solicitor to proof read it and give his opinion on the letter. Then if your solicitor is really nice get them to submit it on your behalf or they might even re-word edit it and submit it (cost to you I'd assume).

Then you need to hope your money isn't wasted if the police decide to take the infringement any further.

Just my opinion, not legal advice from any of my posts.[/quote]
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Post by Rusty »

Just quietly, matching a vehicle's speed is considered to be valid evidence.
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Post by Grunt06GPX »

Can it really be proved and used though, the motorcycle officer was "matching speed" from a stop facing in a completely different direction, meaning he would have to had go turn around and then travel at a faster speed then thewonderer to be able to catch upto thewonderer before the redlight and be able to travel with thewonderer for a distance of a few hundred meters at the same "matched speed" before thewonderer stoped at said redlight.

If you read down what Ive quoted by Sean Hardy (traffic offence specalist barrister) it's not really an accurate assesment of the speed of thewonderers bike and there is room for alot of doubt in thewonderers case.

" You can challenge any type of detection method especially if expert evidence (and money) is applied to the problem. If there are two cars in a speed camera photo, or two vehicles together on the road at the time a radar is used, the results can be unreliable."

"Radar devices are also known produce unreliable readings from vehicles which are out of view (over a hill or behind foliage) or from radar beams that are reflected from signs, fences, parked vehicles, from trains and planes travelling nearby, and from interferences from power lines"

"Maintaining even distance detection is the least reliable. This is when the police follow your vehicle for a few hundred metres and estimate your speed from their speedo."

"The police have decided to deduct 2 or 3 kmh from the detected speed to reduce the risk they may end up wasting a couple of days in court arguing about the accuracy of the speed measuring device."

S. P. Hardy

^
The police dont want to waste time arguing about accuracy in court, precisely thewonderers case, the accuracy of the "speed measuring device" is extremely poor, a single person.

I think "maintaining even distance detection" method only works if used as a scare tactic and the person just pays the fine, but once again see a solicitor asap.
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Post by dave#3 »

Grunt06GPX wrote:aardvark,
Thats great that in THEORY you MIGHT be talented enough to magically determine speeds without the use of electronic equipment, but magic determination of speed isn't evidence and leads to there being reasonable doubt of the offence even occuring.

My client might have appeared to be speeding, but my client was not speeding, there is no solid evidence of him speeding, just an opinion of a single officer parked in a stationary position giving at best an estimate of what speed he might have been traveling at in the time of the first infraction.

The officer in question threatened my client, stating"turn of that bike or I'll knock you off it!". This unprofessional conduct seriously questions this particular officers credibility and professionalism, questioning if he should be able to establish precision details such as the speed of a moving vehicle alone without the assistance of electronic radar equipment.

The officer also claims to have matched the speed of my client during the second infraction, matching the speed of my client does not give an adequate indication of the speed my client was traveling at the time. As stated there is reasonable doubt in the practice of the officer in determining my clients speed as well as doubt of the abilities of this officer shown through his lack of respect for citizens he serves and poor highly unprofessional conduct when directing my client to leave the road.

^Alot of doubt there.
Cough, cough, wanker.

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Post by Grunt06GPX »

I never said I could speak proper english.
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