What are your views?

[javaman]

people. In my area there is a particular group of people who are the WORST drivers I have ever experienced. They come from a country that doesn't speak english or have cars.

I think there is no need to be worried labelled as racist as you have the experience and facts. I went through a driver training for license test and the trainer actually was *really* surprised seeing me able to drive well being asian, he told me.

His experiences would be true such as some countries in Asia you don't need a car - just take public transport like Singapore or Japan (oh the irony..). The conception of cars would be limited to playstation I guess .

So what is this particular group I have to look out for

[Smitty]

The reason they aren't harassing the Ulysses members when they head out for a ride is because they are just tootling around attempting to obey the law. The reason they harass the rest of us is because quite often as sports bike riders we are riding around at the speed of light, crossing barrier lines or crashing.

Personally, I say we stop passing the buck because regardless of the size of the bike you ride, it's you who is twisting the throttle.

Maybe I should join Ulysses then if there not getting hassled (and yes I am old enough to be a Jr member)
ok now the joking is done, I have to say I agree with or resident police officer
no one else to blame on a bike

agree
the brain controlling the wrist is responsible
...no-one or no thing else


btw
Ulyssians don't get booked...coz Goldwings or Hardly DAngerous don't go fast enuff
(the exception being us Ulyssians with Kwaka sports bikes )

[Plaz]

[Rant]

Well its been said, and I thouroughly agree, whether you ride a 25cc scooter or drive the hottest "worked of its tits" V8 Falcodore, there is one and only one person responsible for the actions of that vehicle....the driver/rider.

I have never been through the licensing process in any other state, so can only speak for SA, and even then it was quite a few years back.

Our system for bikes and cars is woeful, in as little as 2 days you can give almost anyone a ticket to operate a deadly weapon amongst the general population. Its not good, but it is the law.
Lets face it, if the pollies were serious, there would be no vehicle of any type on the roads capable of doing more than 60kmh but at some stage due to common sense and necessity you have to establish a system and put the responsibility in the hands of the user.

So if the police appear to "pick on us" there is a bloody good reason, c'mon we've all seen the superhereo rider/driver who overtakes anything that moves on any corner, blind or not and we all think..."what a tool!" but honestly how many of us can say we haven't pulled of some bone headed move (be it poor judgement or intentional).

Whats the answer? buggered if I know??? but how about as a start we take the responsibilty for our actions. If you were speeding.....what ever the reason....you were speeding, grin and bear it, pay the ticket or do your time. If you don't agree try the magic that is our legal system and challenge it.
For my 2c I think if we are a minority with a relatively small voice to cause change, but before we go riding " en masse" to little Johnnies house in Canberra, shouldn't we look at ourselves and start the change there???

[/Rant]

[Felix]

...Cecil Plains road west of Toowoomba which I ride on everyday has had a LOT of these patch up jobs on it lately and the repair is lots worse than the little ridge or pothole they attempted to repair...and if thats not bad enough, they didnt even clean up all the gravel...nuf said. And for the record, 5 people died on that road 2 weeks ago...need we say more.

You aren't talking about the Beef City incident are you?

We know through friends of the deceased, that it was common practice for those idiots to drag race each other to work...let's not blame road conditions where peoples stupidity is actually to blame.

It also reminds me of an incident last year where a guy ploughed his car into a shop front down in Russell St - doing over 100kph - there is no way that was an appropriate speed for the CBD, especially not there approaching a T instersection. But all the papers and the news wanted us to feel sorry for the idiot...!

I think maybe I am a bit misunderstood by what I mean when I say we need better training. I don't think this means only the physical skills needed to ride/drive. That is a part of it, yes, but not the extent of it.

What I mean is that we need to train people in the more intellectual aspects of driving/riding. Such as what to do when the road turns to crap, what effect the first rain in 3 months has to tyre grip, braking distances, etc...I don't think any of this is done in any kind of serious way at the moment.

I guess it is a cultural thing. But maybe it is worth the effort to try and effect some change for the long term?

[photomike666]

Jason has made some very valid points, and I whole heartedly agree (bloddy hell, I agreed with a copper ).

As for rider training; basic skill levels are shitty everywhere. With a solo machine it is hard to give real world experience without real world dangers. So training is given off road with an emhpasis on machine handling.

If we encourage the governments to hand out extra cash on rider training what will it accomplish? People will ride through them there hills at a faster rate, and more will die.

I see two options other than over policing the area;
1) Put more money into tracks so it is easier and cheaper to get the thrill off the road.
2) Add a dirt section to the second test. This will not teach people to go faster, but more how to control a bike when it gets a bit out of shape.

[diesel]

plas, i agree with you and jase that we must take responsibility for our own actions. especially when they're stupid.

but mate i've seen you ride, you're well in control of the situation even when going quick enough to lose ur ticket. how is it fair to say that you speeding on the spur by a few kms is dangerous, cos the reality is it's no more dangerous than if you stick to the limit.

cops do make a gross generalisation, mostly with genuine concern for us...

snip...Sports bike riders are hassled in the hills by the cops because they are over represented in the death and serious injury categories for road users on said roads

now if licensing was more strict and training more intense, the general population of bikers would be much higher skilled.
this is true for two reasons:
1. People that don't wanna pay for, or put the effort into, getting a motorcycle license don't deserve it, cos they obviously don't care enough to do it properly. hence tho, this may reduce the total number of riders, it will be a much smaller percentage that don't care enough to ride quick safely.
2. Those that do care enough to pay and put in the effort, will undoubtedly be better off having recieved much needed advice that previously may not have been available.

My final comment is in relation to rider training in victoria. i can't understand how 70% of my class rocked up to get there license (after riding for at least 3 months) without knowing what countersteering is and how to use it effectively. one guy actually tried to complete a swerve to the left by pushing on the right handlebar. how can this be allowed to happen?

[Rossi]

Now I have an alternative view to put forward

If you are going to speed eventually you will get a ticket, law of averages says so, if you do, then like I do you cop it sweet because the guy that is writing your ticket is the same guy that could be :-

A. Picking your bloody body from out of the trees

B. Having to inform your next of kin of your demise

On the training front .....I will give you something to think about

The more training you give to somebody that is "irresponsible" then the better they think of their own abilities and try to ride faster.
It is far better to ban any one under the age of 40 from riding fast motorcycles

[Nanna10r]

Best Thread for Ages, Good onya Neil. The reason for the original idea was to have a good get together & not seek any unwanted attention as its not about speeding anymore it's about riding a sportsbike on a weekend.

I agree totally With Jas (wearing either hat). there's some great other points made by everyone. Especially Bonester about people's ability to learn certain skills I work with a coupla of the Race i believe he is talking about & while they are both top blokes, our workbus gets backed into the gates at least once a month & their own cars look like rejects from a Wreckers.

I personally dont have a drama with the Police/politicians actions at the moment, I did how ever take exception to the free sausage sizzle proposal a while back as I thought it was patronising & hypocrytical on their part.
I like to think i was "Smart enough" to realize what was coming when it started back in October. I haven't riden the "Weekend Mountain roads being targetted, since . I wont until its finished with. Not because i will get booked for speeding because I can't show discretion, but because i don't want to be targeted as a member of "THE AT RISK GROUP". Same as Xmas i didn't social ride until school recomenced.

I quite often get criticised for being "Nana" but isn't that about "helping those we care about being more responsible/safer ?" Sharing life experience etc. I always try & ensure everyone has a good/safe time on any ride I'm involved in.

Maybe we should all take a little more responsibility & be a little more honest with ourselves & our friends.

PS We need More TRACKS ( we have lost 2 in thge last 18months Norwell & Darlington Park). Helmets/back protectors/gloves/leathers should be TAX free. Licencing needs to be Time based as well as age based so some 35year old cant go out tomorrow get a Qride open licence & buy an R1 the next day & die in a fortnights time chasing his mates on the weekend. That's what has brought this situation on to begin with.

If they were serious "put pushy skid lids on car drivers" & licence test everyone every 5 years.

[Plaz]

plas, i agree with you and jase that we must take responsibility for our own actions. especially when they're stupid.

but mate i've seen you ride, you're well in control of the situation even when going quick enough to lose ur ticket. how is it fair to say that you speeding on the spur by a few kms is dangerous, cos the reality is it's no more dangerous than if you stick to the limit.

Hear what you are saying mate but its a simple fact that if I go over the limit I'm breaking the law....I do it, so if I get caught I don't bitch about it and certainly don't claim i'm being harrassed by the cops. Others would argue (and with some justification) that I increase the risk for myself and anyone else on the road and encourage other riders to push past thier capabilities (even though I make a point on nearly every ride I do with anyone to make sure they know to stay in their comfort zone) and all of this is a valid argument. I'd love it if the powers that be would test us all individually and then give us "special licenses" that say..."ok, this bloke is good to go 10km ot 15km over the limit" but simple truth is, thems the rules...follow them or don't.


I know I'm being greedy posting twice here but a few people have mentioned, making it more expensive/harder to get licenses. I think (I know that will come as shock to some of you) that isn't patciularly a good idea. We are a minority (actually we are a minority in a minority) and I strongly believe that greater acceptance will come with greater numbers. Raisng the cost of a license or making it take two years to get one will turn people away and end up making us the the very minor consideration when it comes to road use/rules/policy decisions.
I feel a better answer would be to take a good hard look at the training and programs we offer and enhance them to give peolple the knowlege they need to survive. This shouldn't just be for bikes, this should cover anyone who wants to use any vehicle on the road.

I think programs should be longer and should include things like night driving/riding, track work, skid pans and even basic vehicle maintenance.

Food for thought.........

[Neka79]

could always make ppl sign up for a funeral plan as part of their licensing...when u get ut monthly bill/deduction for $3 its a stark reminder to ride /drive safely...

i reckon, and ive said it for years, ALL drivers should be forced to spend a month on a bike/scooter to qualify for their car licence ..this will wisen a lot of car drivers up...

as for smartening up bike riders, special licencing, if u do advanced courses, race licence & stuff like that, u get an unlimited licence...otherwise u can only get a dedicated licence for the size bike u can pass a test for..altho its easy enuf to kill urself on a 600 these days- not that much difference...

maybe the govt should subsidise advanced rider training in sum way (tax free would be a start)..also more advertising , cheaper rego etc to encourage more bikes on the road...

unfortunately the point we all keep getting away from is that its the rider in control, and theres no way u can legislate against stupid ppl killing themselves (thanks red dave)..

[balanse]

Reading all this talk about rider skills makes me think that there is another side to this equation that is to my mind a major source of the problem with guys losing control of bikes ... and that is sports bikes themselves.
Your average cruiser or standard motorcycle is a fairly forgiving machine. Wide spread of power, neutral handling and less agressive riding position. They also come with a completely different lifestyle image to that of sports bikes.
Sportbikes marketed image is about race; speed; beating all comers etc (just check the language of a R6 ZX6R GSX1000 etc brochure if unconvinced). Most of us if we think it through would have to come to the conclusion that a sports bike over 400cc is a ridiculous piece of kit for public roads. The acceleration, top speeds and skill required simply exceed many peoples abilities.

Think about the vehicle itself for a moment, you have something with a power to weight ratio that make the device almost ballistic and an increasing fashion for the last couple of decades towards geometry that is more about shaving tenths around a track than handling pot holes and must be carefully dealt with by (preferably) an experienced hand.

It used to be that race bikes were built from road bikes and you could have the race image on a road bike - but now many road riders are buying bikes specifically built to race, and finding that the real life demands are much different from the marketing promise of donning your leathers and becoming a legend amongst your mates. Unfortunately many who try it are found wanting, even ace ride school students.

Training is valid and appropriate but never going to cover those who over extend (i.e. most of us at one time or another). Skills development is about attempting the next stage of proficiency in a chosen activity and failing until you master it. Unfortunately this model is unforgiving on a motorcycle and deadly on a public road.

The obvious answer and one that you can be sure has not escaped the legislators is to get people off high powered race style (ie sports) bikes. Just must be a tough call politically or it would have happened by now.

[elrond]

* enter the cynic *

People here have raised a LOT of valid points and I’ve found nothing I disagree with strongly enough to bother posting about.

However I will point out the obvious and burst a few bubbles.

People will never stop speeding.

The govt. can not measure attentiveness or fatigue or stupidity.

Hence its regulatory model is shaped around
a) Something measurable - speed, alcohol, etc
b) Something that can make the govt serious money
c) Something that keeps up appearances

The govt don't like bike riders and never will.

We are a minority that if they had the chance would destroy in an instant because we are bad for business. That is the business of keeping the mob happy and winning elections.

Are motorcyclists targeted? Absolutely.

Why?
Because we are statistically over-represented in the road toll.

Why?
Because we sit upon stupidly fast bits of metal that offer no protection to us in the event of an accident. Regardless of whose fault it is we are more likely to die in an accident and the stats reflect this.

What can the govt do to keep up appearances and make it at least look like it’s trying to do something about it?

Harsher penalties.

Why?
It’s profitable to fine people.
It’s not profitable to fix roads.

In an ideal world:
The govt would spend money on its roads - this unquestionably improves safety for all.

Govt’s would provide and maintain race tracks @ affordable prices to lure the man in (or should I say on) the street away from public roads and onto the track.

There should be greater emphasis on motorcycle awareness as part of the licensing process.

All ages should be subject to rigorous testing to move from a 250 to a bigger bike.

Unfortunately it’s not an ideal world.

So what do i see happening?
The govt will take any measure it can to reduce the number of riders on the road.

Bigger fines
Bigger demerits
More expensive licenses
More expensive insurance (I think this one takes care of itself pretty well already)

Essentially anything that makes voters think pollies are really trying to do something about road safety.

Our current system is a farce and will not change while
a) Bike riders = bugger all of the electorate
b) The greater electorate nod and tick the same box over and over

My own solution:

Don't ride on the weekend
Don't ride the hot-spots

Annoy your local member (and other members) with concise, coherent questions and ideas about rider safety, lobby hard enough and you will get noticed.

The long short of it is that the more idealistic notions people have put forward will never see the light of day - govt's are 2 things:

a) Concerned with winning the next election
b) Pragmatic - whatever achieves a) is the best course of action.

Accept things aren’t going to change any time soon - in fact its more likely things are only going to get worse for riders.

Change your riding habits and save yourself a lot of grief rather than ‘fighting the good fight’.

That is unless the bike community gets a clue and actually forms itself into a functional lobby group - I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[ZZRCHIKKY]

Because we sit upon stupidly fast bits of metal

COUGH THIS IS A MOTOCYCLE FORUM !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Neka79]

Reading all this talk about rider skills makes me think that there is another side to this equation that is to my mind a major source of the problem with guys losing control of bikes ... and that is sports bikes themselves.
Your average cruiser or standard motorcycle is a fairly forgiving machine. Wide spread of power, neutral handling and less agressive riding position. They also come with a completely different lifestyle image to that of sports bikes.
.

FARKING BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

weve hit the nail, right on its friggin head.

a. Bikes are way quicker than they need to be for the road (ppl die on 250's)

b. idiots wanan race cos they think its the business

c.bikes are marketed for the purpose of getting boy racers to buy...


hence why i keep saying, "theres no trophies at the next pub/cafe/smoke stop"

if we want thing to change, we gotta get off our arses & do it our farkin selves..not sit round waiting for it to happen...

[gizmo]

Maybe we could ask them to put in kitty litter and air-fences aswell?

Now that's a Fantastic Idea!