The learning curve!

[Strika]

Passing through corners (with less-experienced riders) just reduces the safety margin for both......

but passing through corners with someone you have ridden with for *years* is not only acceptable, it should be encouraged

Anyone know what a *Buffalo Girl* is ?? ....... well, that was the *preferred* riding style back in those days.....

Yeah I agree. An inexperienced, new just got my licence, look out I am wobbling all over the place learner demands a certain err margin of safety within which to pass. And I agree these are not the people we should be Buffalo Girling!!!!

People who have some competency however, should be capable of another rider overtaking them safely either on the outside on a left hander, or on the inside on a right hander, provided the road conditions are suitable, visibility is good, and a fair and reasonable distance is maintained. If not then I should doubt their suitability to the pastime of riding a motorcycle.

I have never had anyone, apart from the first couple of group rides I did, complain about the way I ride. So I am assuming that I use that long forgotten skill called common sense when attempting a pass.

However when refering to the middle group, who have an idea, but perhaps not the most skill full. Quite often on powerful bikes, who have a nasty habit of gassing shit outta it in the straights and doing a million gazelles and then parking it in the turn and holding you up. Do that, and you deserve to be taught a lesson. Round the outside, up the inside e, wherever!!:twisted:


Now I have personally ridden with some really slow riders, ...and no Gos I am not refering to you or Ponti, , and I have never had any of them complain about being overtaken. So I can only assume i must be doing it OK........ I will continue to utillise my common sense and the road rules, regardless of who I ride with.

[Smitty]

.snip...

We *never* had any issues with passing in corners etc, because within 10 minutes of a ride commencing, the group would string out - the maniacs out the front, normal norms in the middle, and the snails bringing up the rear........therefore you just did not have *issues* with carving up less-experienced riders, because they were all behind you anyway.....

Gos
I hate to say it
but over the years, the few times I have seen ppl coming to grief
by passing in corners or in the wrong spots
is in the first 10-15 mins of a ride

[Gosling1]

in all the years I rode with the same group, we *never* had an issue with someone pranging........ever. Mind you, some of the support cars had issues !!!

If the order of the pack hasn't been sorted out in the first 10 minutes, then you can almost *guarantee* problems later on........maybe slower riders riding beyond their abilities .......(and if they don't ever do this, how can they learn anyway ??), or faster riders just buggerising about (although this is *less* likely to cause a prang, simply because of the higher skill levels of the faster riders........)

In any case, someone else pointed out that if you don't take a risk every now and then, then your skills will probably remain static......Although I recommend that people should use Trackdays to *explore the limits*, not group rides.....its just common sense........(but if common sense was common, then everyone would have it..... )

[stevew_zzr]

Take bigger risks when the consequences are less severe (track days) and take smaller risks when on the road. Learning how to be fast on the road takes WAY longer than learning on the track, because you'll either come to big-grief quicker on the road, or you'll simply learn slower because you can't push as hard.

Even travelling in a straight line at 20km/h has an element of risk to it - it's all about realising when to be smart, and when to be a smart-arse.

[Strika]

[quote="Smitty


[/quote]

Gos
I hate to say it
but over the years, the few times I have seen ppl coming to grief
by passing in corners or in the wrong spots
is in the first 10-15 mins of a ride [/quote]


With the odd group ride under my belt I have seen the odd person crash. But not a lot in the first ten mins of a ride?? But I am not disagreeing with your experiences Smitty, Unlike Gos I know you can ride and you've seen what you've seen! , it's just that most of the ones I have seen, are usually at about 2/3rds to 3/4s of the way up a challenging stretch. ie- returning from Lavers hill and making it to between Lorne and Anglesea before piffing it. Or 3/4s of the way up Reefton spur. Or half way thru a day long ride. But back to topic.

I have seen some interesting body postioning from riders too. Some riders sit on top of the bike too much. They probably are not even aware of what they look like. A vid is a really great way to see and correct bad body positioning.

A little rule I use. When on the road and in the centre of seat, I attempt to ensure that my upper body (steady now girls) and my head, is positioned in a line, just to the inside of the Headstem. ie; thru a left hand bend, my upper body and manly muscular torso and handsome face, is just to the left of the centre of the bike.

In press on mode,(thats when I am pretending to be Valentino, but looking like a greyhound fucking a tennis ball) I pretend to bite the wrist on the inside of the turn. So bite the left wrist in a left hander, and right wrist in a right hander. When going in a straight line I generally have my head up my arse!

Also a few have mentioned this, but another habit i get into on the road is to not use the brakes while the bike is tipped over. So in other words, brake while still upright, set the turn entry speed, tip it in and start rolling the velocitator back on. Not too much throttle though boys n girls. remember most of you ride Kwakas, and they have loads more power than Hondas, and Suzukis and so on. So just roll it on gently.

A roll ride down a mountain road is a good way to encourage corner speed, and smooth flowing lines for the road. It's important that you don't lose momentum, as you have no power to make up for it. So it encourages you to set as high a corner speed as you can and be smoother and more flowing, which turn leads to much faster point to point times with less effort.

Although I am not an exponent of the complete twist if the wrist endoctrination, I agree with some of his wise words. I think he once said something along the lines of the following, and someone may have posted this too, but basically dynamically, a motorbike is pretty damn stable thru a turn. It's the big lump of unstable human that sits on top of it which can cause a lot of the problems. I try n be floppy dog on the bike. Just relax, loosen the grip on the bars. For the boys just imagine the grips are your penis. You don't want to grip it too hard, as it will turn purple and cause pain, but you need enough to feel it!!! for the Girls, just imagine you have your hand on my penis (No not my hand on my penis, although some may feel differently ) and you want to encourage me. So your grip has to be firm enough for me to feel it, but not too hard as then you won't get what comes after

So just relax that grip, relax the body, take off that restrictive bra....err sorry back on topic...... Just relax your arms and your body and don't worry about the bike moving around a little under you. They are designed to do that!

[Smitty]

I have seen some interesting body postioning from riders too. Some riders sit on top of the bike too much. They probably are not even aware of what they look like. A vid is a really great way to see and correct bad body positioning.

have you seen the posture Scotty (son of Ken) him from Ballaarat
adopts on his ZX9r....????

never seen anything like it...he crouches down tucks head into shoulders
and does not move his body at all
but
is as quick and as smooth as anyone I now

definitely a different riding style

cheers

[Smitty]

..snip...

Also a few have mentioned this, but another habit i get into on the road is to not use the brakes while the bike is tipped over. So in other words, brake while still upright, set the turn entry speed, tip it in and start rolling the velocitator back on. Not too much throttle though boys n girls. remember most of you ride Kwakas, and they have loads more power than Hondas, and Suzukis and so on. So just roll it on gently.

hmmmm
remember a comment somewhere about
slow in...fast out

[Barrabob]

Haha good one strika i laughed my ass off, if someone wants to go round me on a road ride i just let them I want to get to my destination in one peice at my pace which can vary a bit but generally seems acceptable to me and thats what counts.

Track days are a better place to have a go and if the pace is too slow for ya go up a group, its way better than hugging a tree at 120kph or playing in the cheese cutters.

I look at a lot of photos and then look at what i do, track day photos are good for this and i notice some people get off the bike knee down but are still in a upright position vertical to the horizon where i am at the same angle as the bike but off the side of it.

Should dig out some photos and post them but i supose its what works for the rider as well.

[Maty10]

i was reading an article in a porsche magazine a while ago.
it was an interview/test drive with porche's oldest and most respected test driver.
they went out to a track, he drove around the track at an even 60kph and said "hold the steering steady and accelerate, you run wide, decellerate and you turn sharp" "that's all you need to know about oversteer and understeer"
works so well, my entry speed aint all that great, but as i roll on the throttle through a corner, i push on the inside handlebar accordingly to hold my line, and i come out quick.

Bikes work just a little differently to that Porsche Diesel!!

point conceded.
but not that differently.
add throttle mid-corner in a car, it will run run wider.
reduce throttle mid-corner it will run tighter.
try it next time ur on an on/off ramp in the missus' station wagon. just hold the wheel steady.
same principles on a bike.

I know I'm jumping on this a little late, but better late than never.

Ever driven a car at the same enthusiasm level you would a bike? They behave exactly the same!! More throttle, tightens the line (to a point), less will see you running wide. It's most noticable when your really honking (4 wheel drift time).

I have seen some interesting body postioning from riders too. Some riders sit on top of the bike too much. They probably are not even aware of what they look like. A vid is a really great way to see and correct bad body positioning.

Or the kind words of a more experienced rider of course. I know personally too many years of riding a smelly traily has me leaning to the outside. It's something someone else wispered to me once, and now I see that I do it plain as day. Old habbits die hard thats for sure, still can't shake it.

[goanna_38]

I usually go for rides in a small group of people who all know and trust each other. One unwritten rule we have is "Don't make fun of the slow guy". This is a rule which I appreciate because I am usually (not always) the slow guy. We all know where we are going and usually stop at intervals to let everyone catch up. No problem. If I go riding and there is a newbie in the group (either new to the group or new to riding) I make sure I stress to them "Ride at your own pace". I have almost come to grief so many times in my early years trying to keep up with someone faster (and I used to ride with some real loons) that I thought "Bugger it, I know where they are going". If your mates won't wait for you or they make fun of how slow you are, then they aren't your mates. All they are doing is encouraging something that will eventually be very messy and noisy. Ride fast or ride slow is a choice that should be left to the individual. Shaming someone (seen that before too) into riding over their head is potentially disastrous, especially with the young and impressionable.

[MickLC]

...One unwritten rule we have is "Don't make fun of the slow guy"...

Good point, especially 'cause one day they may be faster than you

[Smitty]

I know I'm jumping on this a little late, but better late than never.

Ever driven a car at the same enthusiasm level you would a bike? They behave exactly the same!! More throttle, tightens the line (to a point), less will see you running wide. It's most noticable when your really honking (4 wheel drift time).

mate
sorry but not always.....

go drive a HQ Holden or an old XB falcon
and try increasing throttle as you corner
...you WILL run wide (despite winding on miles more steering)

why?
the manufacturer purposely built in understeer in these cars
and so
the faster you go ..more understeer and understeer
in a car will mean that the nose of the car will run wide
why they do this?
the car manufacturers want you to LIFT OFF
when you go in too hot (coz its the natural thing to do)
and
today, even with all the engineering know how
(and ESPs and ABSs and IRSs etc) the car companies,
as I have been told by their engineers, still ensure a little
understeer in their vehicle (actually its hard to totally get rid of
with a car with an engine in the front )

so as I said, not always


hth

cheers

[Maty10]

mate
sorry but not always.....

go drive a HQ Holden or an old XB falcon
and try increasing throttle as you corner
...you WILL run wide (despite winding on miles more steering)

why?
the manufacturer purposely built in understeer in these cars

As with any rule there is always going to be exceptions. "Generally" more throttle will tighten the line, especially in a car that has an "even" under/over steer balance.

And of course any "deliberate" understeer can always be counter-acted by enough right foot but thats obviously not the fastest way around a corner.

Moral of the story....

1. Ride to your abilities, not your ambitions.
2. Ride relaxed. Riding tense (tight grip, etc) eliminates your natural shock absorbtion and bounces the shock wave down the suspension.
3. Finish your braking and setting up before you turn in, have the throttle open throughout the corner, and concentrate on accelerating smothly and progressively throughout.

[Strika]

I usually go for rides in a small group of people who all know and trust each other. One unwritten rule we have is "Don't make fun of the slow guy".

When riding with my mates, that is rule number one too. But in reverse...... It's mandatory to make fun of your slower mates!!!!! Not people who you don't know, but your mates for sure!! Take the piss about how they look, their leathers that are gay, the poofy boots they wear, and any odd choice of clothing or other thing that we can get a rise outta them with!!!! Bahahaaha!

It's also mandatory to attempt to grab their front brake lever, try to remove the ignition key, or hit their kill switch while overtaking.

I reckon we are all getting to be like big pussies. WTF happened to the good old Aussie adage..."she'll be right mate!" ????? Where is the Larikin spirit this nation was founded on? We are all becoming little safety crats!!!! FFS we are motorcyclists and bikers aren't we????? grow some balls!!!!

next ride out, I am gunna have some fun. 50 Psi in your tyres when your not looking! Swap your plug leads at lunch stop! Lower or raise your idle.......Move your mirrors n lever positions around,...........Ahh the fun!!!

[goanna_38]

It's also mandatory to attempt to grab their front brake lever, try to remove the ignition key, or hit their kill switch while overtaking.

Oooooh!!!!!!!! Won't be going riding with you anytime soon.