Kawasaki Sportsbike Riders Club - Australia - Online Forum

fireyrob wrote:Shot them all let God sort them out. Discuss

That can be for a 4th offence.....

so we have....
1st offence, counciling
2nd offence, slap on the wrist
3rd offence, sterilisation
4th offence, firing squad

works for me

I am really interested in hearing the comments from the people who work with children daily.

Mainly because they are the first people to tell me that it is so much harder now compared to 20 years mainly due to the kids now know they have nothing to fear, no consequences for bad behavior and are taught they can't fail instead it is now a not yet complete. Teachers and police hand are tied. The kids have the upper hand.

Yet

When it comes to a discussion they are the first to spill out the politically correct modern day form of discipline and nurturing.

So which is right.

I have my point of view but as above it interests me to see the guy/girls in the business seem to have all a similar view. However as I see it, it's not working, so why?

Had this on in the garage today and thought of this story thats unfolding.


Its easy to make suggestions, criticise the authorities and espouse all sorts of ideals.
How are the parents getting through this? I hope that they get as much support offered to them as this "troubled child".
I hope that everybody involved gets through this.

seiko1 wrote:With your abused and neglected children maybe.
But the stock standard spoiled little shit just needs a good kick up the arse to realise there are consequences to their actions!
If a child raised in a loving environment with more than they need, yet still behave like a rabid dog....see line above

I like the puppy analogy....get a puppy and don't punish it for shitting and pissing all over the house.....
what would you expect to end up with as an adult dog?

To answer your questions. Yes I have two kids, a boy and girl 5 and 3 I also had my nephew stay with me whilst he finished highschool for 18 months (single parent family from my sister) and yes he held a party whilst I was away without my knowledge but more of that later. By the way where are the Romans today? Yes they built an empire but they also built the biggest opposition. Fear should not be mistaken for respect. I would suggest you neither fear nor respect the police so fear doesn't work.

A few questions for any who believe that corporal punishment works on kids. 1) at what age is it okay to hit a child? 12 months, 18 months, 2 years??? 2) at what age do you stop hitting a child, or rather use corporal punishment as a way of keeping kids under control???? 10 years old, 12, 14 or when they can hit back?? 3) How hard should you hit? so it hurts that they cry, leaves a mark or draws blood??? Don't bother answering as there is no right answer.

In over 90% of cases an adult hits out of frustration or an anger release, we say it is punishment but the fact is it purely about us (the parents) releasing their anger. I did work on human behaviour as part of my career.

Professional help is not necessarily a psychological professional, it can be anyone from a doctor to the local child case worker, don't mix the two.

Hitting a child is simply physical abuse and does not gain respect, it only teaches the child to be clever about how they get away with it.

When your child starts hitting others at school to teach others a "lesson" one should only look inward for why. Kids learn from their peers, it we teach them it is okay to hit another as punishment than well you can't blame them can you. You might want to get out of the dark ages and release that positive reinforcement works far better than kicking them (that included dogs as I have trained a few and hitting them is nowhere as efficient as a positive reward) Reward the behaviour you want, don't simply punish the one you don't

It is interesting that when Nelso challenged you backed down, was that fear or respect for Nelso?

Kids haven't changed only what people report and want to believe, we all want to believe that kids are worse today then they were when "I" grew up, funny thing is your parents and their parents said the same thing, don't we all get old and forget what we were like.

To my nephew - My nephew whilst living with me was drinking and I knew my wife wasn't happy, neither was I but I wanted him to learn a lesson without a lecture. He had a party at our house without my knowledge and it didn't go well. When I found out and I wanted to belt him, who wouldn't. I sat him down and gave him some options, I told him how disappointed I was and how he learnt a good life lesson about so called "friends" when they drink. I told him he had to tell his mum or I would give my full version of the last 6 months. I won, we had no more issues if he did something I didn't agree with i got an apology and the behaviour was modified. I had boundaries he wanted to find them, I respected him for that, I respected him more for not trying it twice.

People need to be empowered not down trodden, not held back or beaten, learn a better way and we all win.

Nick

I was fully following until you stated " kids haven't changed " . That's a simply not correct. I never remembered teachers fearing kids in a class room or yelling at police about their rights, challenging the police in court battles.

Also you haven't mentioned why this political correct approach is not working.

Prison is our big answer in society and this is used as a form of fear. So of this fear is agreeable by society then why is not any others.

I will say I don't agree with child abuse or overly hitting any child. I do however remember learning behavioural adjustments from my parents when I did wrong. I quiet clearly remember that they weren't out of anger but a form a discipline. As a child I learned right and wrong from some of these lessons which also taught me respect. So how is why they did so wrong if I turned out as a law abiding citizen without any criminal record. Surely I should have some sorted of troubled mental stability if I was raised this way.

Blurr wrote:....I was fully following until you stated " kids haven't changed " . That's a simply not correct. I never remembered teachers fearing kids in a class room or yelling at police about their rights, challenging the police in court battles.....

agre 100%. Kids feared the teacher when corporal punishment was allowed. As soon as teachers lost the power to put the fear of god into the little turds - the tables turned 180deg. My old man was a career teacher of almost 40 years, and he saw the change in attitudes and also the erosion of discipline and respect that followed the removal of real, actual punishment that hurt.

My kids know how far they can push things before the old man gets serious. They don't push any further, and they also don't get into strife at school. Ever.

Discipline & respect start at home. If they get no discipline, they show no respect. End of story.

Blurr wrote:I was fully following until you stated " kids haven't changed " . That's a simply not correct. I never remembered teachers fearing kids in a class room or yelling at police about their rights, challenging the police in court battles.

Also you haven't mentioned why this political correct approach is not working.

Prison is our big answer in society and this is used as a form of fear. So of this fear is agreeable by society then why is not any others.

I will say I don't agree with child abuse or overly hitting any child. I do however remember learning behavioural adjustments from my parents when I did wrong. I quiet clearly remember that they weren't out of anger but a form a discipline. As a child I learned right and wrong from some of these lessons which also taught me respect. So how is why they did so wrong if I turned out as a law abiding citizen without any criminal record. Surely I should have some sorted of troubled mental stability if I was raised this way.

How have they changed? Fear is not respect, fear has not changed, only that they don't have to fear some teacher hitting them in an unchallenged environment.

Having had a my brother in jail I can tell you it doesn't work, if anything it makes them institutional as all they is know how to get back into jail faster. Anyone who says jail works has no idea how it works, I am not saying we shouldn't jail them but it isn't the fairly tale you want to believe.

I recall when I got the strap no one was present and the tool head did what he wanted. I didn't respect him then and I didn't when I put his car on blocks at the end of year 12. I didn't and don't respect my dad for hitting me, but I told him months before he died that I only wanted to be half as successful as him as he taught me that respect was beaten into it was earnt. My dad hit me as punishment but I never respected him for him it, I did respect him when he made us work but lead from example. I learnt from him that hard work was it's own reward, I still respect that, I also learnt that hitting earn't noting, well at least not with me

The "Roman Empire" from about 44 BC to 1453 AD, do the Math, until it "Self Destructed" ....it was not destroyed by external enemies.
Our pissy little "Modern Empire" only a couple of hundred year's and we are self destructing already because of a simple lack of discipline
and the soft big city delusion that we are no longer animals driven by ANIMAL instincts
There will be a time when children don't require a stern hand, you know, when there are no more wars, no more corporate greed
and a general Utopic Society....
hang on...I'll hold my breath

Nelso fired back?
Edit: don't bother reading back, Nelso said nothing in response!

Being in GAOL (this is Aus FFS!) does not work.
But the FEAR of GAOL certainly does....otherwise I would have killed a few fuckers with VIOLENCE (the supreme authority, from which all other authority is derived) months ago
From FEAR comes RESPECT!

Your world where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles. ...
does not exist, except in the fantasies of pussy arse Pollies and the SHEEP that believe every damn pile of shit they shove down our throats.

anyway, enough stirring...time for a beer

smithy5 wrote: so we have....
1st offence, counciling
2nd offence, slap on the wrist
3rd offence, sterilisation
4th offence, firing squad

Sterilisation is not a punishment - it's a perk!

Plato wrote:What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions.
Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?

Socrates wrote:The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

Hesiod (8ct Century BC) wrote:I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint

Bring on the naughty next generation
It's these modern little turds that kill people I'm worried about

seiko1 wrote:The "Roman Empire" from about 44 BC to 1453 AD, do the Math, until it "Self Destructed" ....it was not destroyed by external enemies.
Our pissy little "Modern Empire" only a couple of hundred year's and we are self destructing already because of a simple lack of discipline
and the soft big city delusion that we are no longer animals driven by ANIMAL instincts
There will be a time when children don't require a stern hand, you know, when there are no more wars, no more corporate greed
and a general Utopic Society....
hang on...I'll hold my breath

This was your response champ, maybe you forgot. Like a coward you ran to the bushes when challenged

With your abused and neglected children maybe.
But the stock standard spoiled little shit just needs a good kick up the arse to realise there are consequences to their actions!
If a child raised in a loving environment with more than they need, yet still behave like a rabid dog....see line above

I like the puppy analogy....get a puppy and don't punish it for shitting and pissing all over the house.....
what would you expect to end up with as an adult dog?
Nelso fired back?
Edit: don't bother reading back, Nelso said nothing in response!

How many kids have you raised?
BTW Romans fell away about a 1000 years before your wikdipedia search said. Yes they still existed but that wasn't the compering Romans who had slaves in the same way that they had at the beginning maybe next time don't do your research on the internet, not evertyhing you read is true.

you are at least right about jail, it doesn't work, but not the way you think. give you a challenge, take a low risk prisoner (a person who has lost their licence too many times) then follow them through until they leave and then see how you deal with it, how you teach them>

Mmmm did you not read my post. I explained how I feel it has changed. ;/

If they don't learn in prison then keep them in there. They obviously don't belong in society and will not learn full stop. In there they encounter fear, retraining, education and encouragement. If they havent learnt after that. Then don't let them out.

As for your dad, as I state in my post above, hitting out of anger is not discipline, in that point i agree with you, however it sounds like your dad used it to vent when you did wrong.

Ohhhhhh and you still haven't stated your thoughts as to why your politically correct approach is failing, cause it is .

Blurr wrote: I have my point of view but as above it interests me to see the guy/girls in the business seem to have all a similar view. However as I see it, it's not working, so why?

I cant say that it’s harder to deal with children now compared to 20years ago because I wasn’t in the industry. I can say that the way I was brought up is VERY different to the way I was taught to deal/manage/assist children and families now.

Even though I work within the law, I don’t always agree with it.

Why is it not working?
Clearly the big question with an even bigger and complex answer

In my opinion, in a nut shell Society. Society is ever changing and there are so many elements that impact on change. Including, but not exclusive to:

TECHNOLOGY / INFORMATION
Communication
Internet
Electronic/online games/pokies
Social media (ie FB)
Mobiles/Tablets/laptops
Access to inappropriate and non age appropriate material
Media
Video images
Music language/content
TV ratings and content
Anime
Medical technology
Access to drugs (illegal and prescription)
Improved procedures
Improvements to transport

ECONOMIC / FINANCIAL PRESSURES
Debt
Access to credit
Government incentives
Greed / Business

NATURAL DISASTERS

POLITICS / LEGAL SYSTEM
Legal system slower to adapt
Prison/Juvi needs reform

CULTURAL
Socially acceptable behaviour (ie drinking)
Immigration
Gangs
Clash of cultures, beliefs and values
Obesity/Mental Health
Change and pressures in family units

PERSONAL HEALTH – MENTAL/PHYSICAL
Body image
Depression
Stress
Obesity

These are just a few. There are so many areas, so many issues –

Kids are a product of our society (as a generalised statement)