The learning curve!

[Strika]

[quote="javaman"][
I can't remember the last time ksrc ride had an off. Last I remember was joint netrider-ksrc ride and some netrider guy had an off. Then the ronster off.

quote]


I can recall a certain CBR600 which went down on a KSRC ride just recently!!!! But once again, nothing to do with passing!!!!

Am I starting to see a theme here????

Not a lot, if any of these accidents have occured when passing??????

[javaman]

[
I can't remember the last time ksrc ride had an off. Last I remember was joint netrider-ksrc ride and some netrider guy had an off. Then the ronster off.

[quote]


I can recall a certain CBR600 which went down on a KSRC ride just recently!!!! But once again, nothing to do with passing!!!!

Am I starting to see a theme here????

Not a lot, if any of these accidents have occured when passing??????

The netrider guy who went down in the example was actually passing rob on a corner and nearly took him out as well

Oh I remember photomike off now he was following YOU

[diesel]

i was reading an article in a porsche magazine a while ago.
it was an interview/test drive with porche's oldest and most respected test driver.
they went out to a track, he drove around the track at an even 60kph and said "hold the steering steady and accelerate, you run wide, decellerate and you turn sharp" "that's all you need to know about oversteer and understeer"
works so well, my entry speed aint all that great, but as i roll on the throttle through a corner, i push on the inside handlebar accordingly to hold my line, and i come out quick.

Bikes work just a little differently to that Porsche Diesel!!

point conceded.
but not that differently.
add throttle mid-corner in a car, it will run run wider.
reduce throttle mid-corner it will run tighter.
try it next time ur on an on/off ramp in the missus' station wagon. just hold the wheel steady.
same principles on a bike.

[Strika]

[

Oh I remember photomike off now he was following YOU

Err no he wasn't. He was actually following Steve!!!!!

[Strika]

point conceded.
but not that differently.
add throttle mid-corner in a car, it will run run wider.
reduce throttle mid-corner it will run tighter.
try it next time ur on an on/off ramp in the missus' station wagon. just hold the wheel steady.
same principles on a bike.

Yeah really differently Diesel.

Where as, if you chop the throttle mid turn in a car it will tighten it's line, do that on a bike, and you stand a really good chance of losing the front. Which is understeer!!! A bike steers far better with a little throttle than without. Where as a car will tighten it's line when you back off mid turn.

Of course their are exceptions too Diesel. When you are right at the limit of front tyre grip on a bike, too much throttle can lighten it enough to take the weight off it, reduce the contact patch, and have it let go.
A racer will control the understeer with the throttle but in a different way to a road rider. The speed you turn a corner on the road, requires a little throttle to balance the Bike and help it hold line. On the track, we require a shitload of throttle to spin the back mid turn to make it slide at the same rate as the front so we don't fall over. The opposite also applies on the track with chopping the throttle. A rider cuts across your line unexpectedly mid turn, you back the throttle off and the front lets go. The exact opposite of the car!!! HTH

[Nanna10r]

C'mon guys, my point was based on "MY Experiences" in riding with a group. It's only a suggestion I make on group rides. It's not a rule. If the guy in front is too busy to see your blinker then he's too busy to have someone passing him so the faster rider should WAIT.
How about we get back on topic & leave the off's discussion for another thread please.
cheers Brett

[mohawk miss]

Having been on several multi-group rides as a Learner I would like to say that yes, when you're learning to ride the last thing you need is some wanker, in a hurry to his own funeral, overtaking you on the apex of a corner, or sitting up your date not giving you enough room to ride "your" line through the corner.

Now I am no longer a L-plater, and try to give new Learners extra room, and pass them when safe instead of worrying them by following too close. And they do worry!

Some even worry me, like the L-plate on the Firies ride who was on the wrong side of the road approaching a blind corner on Bells.....

[Pabs]

Before this post gets derailed

I'd like to congratulate everyone on this Post.

As a rider,I have found group riding(small or large) the most rewarding.I have learnt a lot & continually learning.(never ends)

If you are a NEWBIE read this post & read it again.

Then get on your bike & Ride on Our ride days

Have Fun

[Smitty]

I have seen the KSRC passing program in action and to me it's more dangerous than just folowing the road rules. I had a rider come up next to me on a straight, still in my lane, while heading towards a right hand bend. They pulled alongside me, then proceeded to just sit next to me, with the corner approaching, obviously wanting me to back off. I would consider it a lot more dangerous. Riding with you guys or not, I will follow common sense and pass when it is appropriate (spell) , on the Right hand side of the other rider, and in the right hand lane.

Strika
I don't know the circumstances you quote
but the KSRC policy is there....
so the newbies know where they stand

for you to pass a rider in a corner ..on the wrong side of the
road (in the other lane) might be fine for you
but if they get it wrong..they will take you out
...by a lowside or running wide (grabbing the brakes midcorner)
and moving out towards or past the white line

if you are in a group of mates you always ride with and know how
they ride, then maybe ok with your passing moves
but KSRC rides have varying numbers and varying levels of experience
on every ride and the no passing in corners rule is there for the benefit of all.

I also agree that commonsense is required when out in KSRC group rides
(sumfing I have not seen when out with other groups) but that
applies whether you are on a ride of 1 or 21

cheers

[Strika]

Having been on several multi-group rides as a Learner I would like to say that yes, when you're learning to ride the last thing you need is some wanker, in a hurry to his own funeral, overtaking you on the apex of a corner, or sitting up your date not giving you enough room to ride "your" line through the corner.

Now I am no longer a L-plater, and try to give new Learners extra room, and pass them when safe instead of worrying them by following too close. And they do worry!

Some even worry me, like the L-plate on the Firies ride who was on the wrong side of the road approaching a blind corner on Bells.....

Yeah agree totally. It is very much a matter of judging the riders skill level via visual means, and then making an appropriate passing distance for that rider.

When out for a key in brain out ride with some riders with similiar skill and experience levels, we carve each other up and do stuff that I won't discuss in here. But it is with people I trust in those situations. On a group ride with riders of varying skill level, let me assure you I also like to keep well away from people who are a little inexperienced. Not just for their safety either.

Some riders have a habit of sitting right on yr mudgaurd. Which is fine if they are skillfull enough to deal with it. But even then it is wise to adopt a staggered format to enable the following rider to have plenty of vision ahead.

Common sense is often the key to approaching a group ride. However as you know there is nothing more uncommon than common sense

But road rules are the best to follow. Imagine a rider acclimatised to a certain Non road rules based riding practice, suddenly faced with another group of riders going the same way on the same road. Far better that they have exposure to the correct passing and road positioning procedures that will enable them to better deal with said situations.

I recall making a big Fo-pah (Spell) on one of my early group rides. I had been riding with people who used a courtesy where the first rider behind a car got to pass first and so on. Then I went for a ride with a group who just used the road rules. I was on a 250 at the time (the mighty TZR250 ) and assumed they all did it the way i was used to, went to pull out and pass, and a guy four or five bikes back on an 1100 shot past me as I was pulling out. We missed each other by the barest of margins. It would have been ugly. But it was my fault. I hadn't checked my mirror as required by law. he was in the right!!! Had it been an accident it would have been my fault!!!!

[Stereo]

I also understand that KSRC has a no overtaking in corners policy. One which I believe can cause more accidents than it can avoid.

Do you really believe that?
2. A rider running off the inside of a corner because someone was passing him on the outside
3. A rider running off the outside of a corner because he was trying to pass someone

Yes you are right, it is safe to do so in some circumstances, but there are many more where it ISNT safe to do so... Why freak the "slower" rider out by passing them in a corner... Sure you get where you want to go faster, but what about them?

Whole heartedly. I also believe the accidents you speak of would be where riders are sharing the same lane. A no no in my book. If we are going thru a left hander, which has a dotted line down the centre, and there is no oncoming traffic, and I decide to pass you on the outside, how does that effect you???? And how is it deemed dangerous? Provided I allow a little more room for the more inexperienced rider?

I have seen the KSRC passing program in action and to me it's more dangerous than just folowing the road rules. I had a rider come up next to me on a straight, still in my lane, while heading towards a right hand bend. They pulled alongside me, then proceeded to just sit next to me, with the corner approaching, obviously wanting me to back off. I would consider it a lot more dangerous. Riding with you guys or not, I will follow common sense and pass when it is appropriate (spell) , on the Right hand side of the other rider, and in the right hand lane.

I ride sensibly and within my abilities at all times, and even less experienced riders who have been riding with me will note that while I ride briskly I never put anyone else in danger. If a rider is so frightened of being overtaken they should not be on the road. If you are a slow learner rider (which is cool we all start somewhere) are the faster cars going to follow the KSRC ride rules??? I doubt they will. So why not get learner riders used to riding within the road rules from the get go. Remember they will not always be riding with us!!!!!!!

To tell you the truth, I wouldnt have a problem with you passing me on the outside, or even the inside.... because I am used to it... but if you did that to a less experienced rider, what would happen?

1. They are cornering
2. They see you out of the corner of their eyes, taking their focus from the road
3. They run wide
4. You end up with your head inside a tree or they could end up lying on their side on the road...

At the same time I can see your argument about getting learners used to having people pass them.... But on a ride through the spur it would be like teaching people to juggle swords by giving them swords to juggle...

[Smitty]

I recall making a big Fo-pah (Spell) on one of my early group rides.snip:

Strika

Faux pas = Fo-pah
spelling lesson over

[esie]

As a rider, my experience level is probably in the middle of the field of newbie to spirited rider If I had someone in my mirrors who has come up on me and is wanting to pass, I used to get very stressed and end up running wide and generally not concentrating. Now, I figure that if someone wants to pass me, don't get stressed about it and they will pass me in their own time. Having said that, esp. when I was a new rider, I really hate it when I am passed in a corner, mainly because of the safety factor.

[stevew_zzr]

I think one thing that I could add to this (which is more of a re-iteration or an extension of a point made earlier) is that you must focus on the road and where you want to go. The rider infront of you doesn't matter, if you look at what they are doing, you will probably head straight for them, just keep them somewhere in your vision, but focus on the road and where you want to go. Even when at a track day this holds true, if you don't focus on the track and where you are on the track and manage your own rhythm and timing you will go slower and slower, and make more and more mistakes.

Also if you don't go over your limit every now and then you'll never know where it is It's not the best advice I can give, but it there is no way you can learn how to do anything in life without taking some level of risk.

Oh and get to know how the basics of suspension works. Things like ride height, dampers, suspension geometry, springs, and also the dynamics of the motorcycle (the force that spinning wheels generate, and even the crankshaft, are quite significant). For example, I find on the ZZR250 that when I flick down thru the gears whilst braking, if I do it earlier and keep the revs near 10-13K the bike tends to work against me when doing the initial lean into the corner - so i tend to change a bit later now (even though i lose some engine braking which makes me look 'cool' as the bike squirms into the corner )

All those kind of details and bits of knowledge well help you predict what's going to happen if you try something new, and will help you analyse what happened when you experience something new on the bike.

[Gosling1]

Couple of further things I'll add about group riding:

When I used to ride with *the boys* during the mad 80's, a small group was 6-8 bikes, a medium group was 10-12 bikes, and the big group was anything over 15 or so. (see pics)

We *never* had any issues with passing in corners etc, because within 10 minutes of a ride commencing, the group would string out - the maniacs out the front, normal norms in the middle, and the snails bringing up the rear........therefore you just did not have *issues* with carving up less-experienced riders, because they were all behind you anyway.....

I think you should only pass through a corner if you know exactly who it is you are riding with/passing, that you won't scare the living shit out of them when you do it, and they will cope with a bike *fairly* close to them.....

If the rider you need to pass does not meet these criteria, then FFS, just wait until you reach the next straight bit, and pass then.......its *way* safer for the pair of you.......not all riders can cope with a bike monstering them, and its just not polite manners really.....

Passing through corners (with less-experienced riders) just reduces the safety margin for both......

but passing through corners with someone you have ridden with for *years* is not only acceptable, it should be encouraged

Anyone know what a *Buffalo Girl* is ?? ....... well, that was the *preferred* riding style back in those days.....