latest Vic bike safety campaign.....

[Daisy]

If the government were serious about road safety we'd have:
Retesting of drivers every 5 years.

I would vote for this.

Compulsory use of helmets for all people in a car.
Compulsory wearing of leathers when riding any type of motorcycle, or, the banning of motorcycles completely.
The banning of any cars that don't have ABS, airbags, traction control and stability control.

This is rubbish. All it does is wrap more layers of cotton wool around the current stupidity. When people in cars with all the safety equipment and wearing helmets still die, what would you suggest banning next?
Make it harder for stupid people to get on the roads in the first place - not a vote getter I know - keep testing them to make sure their skills, and more importantly, knowledge, are up to standard.
We've got a road here that was perfectly servicable and posted at 100kmh. There were a couple of crashes, so they dropped the limit to 80 an a lot of it and they were still falling off it. So after much bleating from clowns who know nothing, they decided to 'upgrade' the road. They've wasted millions of dollars 'realigning' a couple of corners and taking out some bumps. And people are STILL driving off the edges! We got a letter from one of our retarded pollies telling us how the resulting better road with its lower speed limits - yes, now some of it is down to 70 - is going to reduce travelling time. Is it any wonder we the voting, motoring public throw our collective hands in the air and just go, what's the bloody use?

[photomike666]

I believe driving standards are the key issue here. In England no-one teaches their children to drive, simply because they would not pass the driving test. The motorcycle test includes a 45 minute road ride with the instructor following you and giving instructions on a radio (and bike lessons are conducted on the road with a qualified instructor). People understand the meaning of keeping left unless overtaking, they also don't tailgate very much. Drivers and riders are taught to read the road ahead and plan ahead - this reduces the all too often Aussie 4 lane cut to exit a freeway.

[dutchy]

Lets not forget that even though the statistics show a greater percentage of motorcycling accidents that doesn't mean that the motorcyclists are to blame. i wonder what percentage of these accidents were actually the fault of the rider? what percentage can be attributed to other vehicles/people being at fault?

[zx6rider]

This is rubbish. All it does is wrap more layers of cotton wool around the current stupidity. When people in cars with all the safety equipment and wearing helmets still die, what would you suggest banning next?

This comment says it all, Well done Daisy!!!

When we ride or drive on the roads it is possible that we might have an accident, when people get on the roads and drive / ride beyond their ability or that of their surroundings, that possible turns into probable, and this driving / riding almost always comes from stupidity.

There will always be accidents, and that is why they are called accidents (Oxford Dictionary defines accident as :- Unexpected event, Mishap, Unintentional act), some will be caused by road conditions, or wildlife or some other natural occurence, but unfortunately other "Accidents" will be caused by reckless driving, fatigue, drugs, and other self related incidents.

when we get in our cars to go somewhere, NONE of us intend to crash or participate in a "Mishap", but by reducing the Stupidity on the roads, accidents will go from being most likely probable to slightly possible.

[aardvark]

Compulsory use of helmets for all people in a car.
Compulsory wearing of leathers when riding any type of motorcycle, or, the banning of motorcycles completely.
The banning of any cars that don't have ABS, airbags, traction control and stability control.

This is rubbish.

Maybe it is, but you've gone and misinterpreted my point. The point is, if governments were really serious about road safety, they would do EVERYTHING in their power to either a) reduce the number of crashes or b) reduce the number of fatalities and injuries caused from crashes.

If the government were serious about road safety we'd have:
Retesting of drivers every 5 years.

I would vote for this.

And when these really well trained and tested drivers still die, then what? You either provide more training or you start wrapping the plebs in layers of cotton wool to stop them from hurting themselves. Which gets back to my original point. I didn't post those points as the be all and end all of road safety, I merely made a number of suggestions about what could be done to reduce road trauma. Sure, on the surface it all seems a little silly, but what is the real alternative? Oh, that's right. you didn't suggest one.

I am 100% for better training and re-testing but I doubt I'll see it brought in whilst I'm still alive. I don't know all the reasons why it won't happen, but I'm sure the suits have their reasons, rightly or wrongly. And what about those that continue to drive without licences? There's plenty of them out there and the number of unlicenced drivers will just sky rocket if we bring in compulsory re-testing.What are we going to do with them? Give them a fine? Give them another fine? Lock them up in the already over-full prisons?

You see, there isn't a simple answer. So what do we do? Just take it for granted that a certain number of people are going to die on our roads every year? Hardly comforting to those who have lost family or friends in a crash. And for those that say "Oh well, that's the reality of life", well.... I just hope that you never have to lose someone because some mindless inbred decides not to give way at a give way sign. Trust me, that's a hard pill to have to swallow.

We've got a road here that was perfectly servicable and posted at 100kmh. There were a couple of crashes, so they dropped the limit to 80 an a lot of it and they were still falling off it. So after much bleating from clowns who know nothing, they decided to 'upgrade' the road. They've wasted millions of dollars 'realigning' a couple of corners and taking out some bumps. And people are STILL driving off the edges! We got a letter from one of our retarded pollies telling us how the resulting better road with its lower speed limits - yes, now some of it is down to 70 - is going to reduce travelling time. Is it any wonder we the voting, motoring public throw our collective hands in the air and just go, what's the bloody use?

So, what exactly are you suggesting they do about it? Reducing the speed limit hasn't helped. Trying to make the road safer hasn't helped. What is the cause of the problem and how do you deal with it?

This is rubbish. All it does is wrap more layers of cotton wool around the current stupidity. When people in cars with all the safety equipment and wearing helmets still die, what would you suggest banning next?

This comment says it all, Well done Daisy!!!

Err, no, it doesn't.

There will always be accidents, and that is why they are called accidents.

They aren't accidents, they are crashes. There is always a cause. So, there will always be crashes. True. At least for the foreseeable future. But that doesn't mean that there wont be people doing their best to stop it from happening.

[mick_dundee]

I "believe" VMAC is not too far away from releasing a fairly comprehensive motorcycle safety plan, whether it's going to be worth the time and effort remains to be seen I guess, but gven that we seem to have a traffic mamangemet plan or a transport plan for Victoria releaSed every 3-5 years without ever actually being acted upon and given none of these thus far have taken into account PTW's then it probably can't hurt.

Aardy, noone turns up to protest rides anymore as a) they are not organised and b) noone really cares if they are, that includes the pollies. I have a copy of a promise made to the MRA by Bracksy that he would abolish this levy, of course when you're in opposition you can promise the world because you don't have to deliver, once he got into office, he didn't deliver.

The levy is here to stay, it's discriminatory for sure but might as well get used to it, not sayying you have to like it, but you will have to live with it.

[Daisy]

The point is, if governments were really serious about road safety, they would do EVERYTHING in their power to either a) reduce the number of crashes or b) reduce the number of fatalities and injuries caused from crashes.

The only realistic way that is ever going to happen is by banning all forms of private transport and makes us catch buses.

I am 100% for better training and re-testing but I doubt I'll see it brought in whilst I'm still alive. I don't know all the reasons why it won't happen, but I'm sure the suits have their reasons, rightly or wrongly. And what about those that continue to drive without licences? There's plenty of them out there and the number of unlicenced drivers will just sky rocket if we bring in compulsory re-testing.What are we going to do with them? Give them a fine? Give them another fine? Lock them up in the already over-full prisons?

Hoons aren't they? Seems to me anything that Big Brother doesn't like on the roads these days comes under that. Crush them.
Seriously, what are we doing with them now? Do the rest of us need to put up and shut up, so the roads might be full of tossers, but at least they're licenced?

You see, there isn't a simple answer. So what do we do? Just take it for granted that a certain number of people are going to die on our roads every year? Hardly comforting to those who have lost family or friends in a crash. And for those that say "Oh well, that's the reality of life", well.... I just hope that you never have to lose someone because some mindless inbred decides not to give way at a give way sign. Trust me, that's a hard pill to have to swallow.

You can't protect everyone from everything. I for one totally resent the notion that I should drive slower because some inbred hillbilly doesn't know how to use a civilised road. I resent the fact that when I'm on my motorcycle I have to drive for everyone around me, because there's a better than even chance that most of them don't even know I'm there. I have a truck, car and bike licence. I was trained by a professional for each one. I resent the fact that all that training is entirely in vain because the powers that be have decided in their infinite stupidity, to give a licence to just any moron and I have to share the roads with them.

We've got a road here that was perfectly servicable ...

So, what exactly are you suggesting they do about it? Reducing the speed limit hasn't helped. Trying to make the road safer hasn't helped. What is the cause of the problem and how do you deal with it?

Reducing the speed limit has lost all effectiveness. Most of us are starting to believe that its just an excuse to put a greed camera in. The cause of the problem is stupidity. Tourists gawking at the scenery ... (Note to tourists; if you want to look at the river and the pretty trees, STOP the car and get out - or take the bloody bus!) Bogans who a) can't drive for shit, and b) carry on like pork chops when you point out their lack of skilz ... and proceed to wheelie themselves into the nearest roadside furniture. Nannas, who think that if 20 below the limit is 'safe', then 40 under must be twice as safe. Learners, who have bogans and nannas teaching them to drive ...

There will always be accidents, and that is why they are called accidents.

They aren't accidents, they are crashes. There is always a cause. So, there will always be crashes. True. At least for the foreseeable future. But that doesn't mean that there wont be people doing their best to stop it from happening.

You can't stop it. People are too inventive. You block one avenue and they will find another means to kill themselves. Darwinism at work. The unfortunate thing is, they keep taking proper humans with them.
I don't know what the whole solution is, but I firmly believe that we need to stop teaching clowns to get a licence and teach them to drive. Change attitudes - not the way the police are currently trying, but before they ever get near a licence test. Other countries do it. What's wrong with us?

[aardvark]

Change attitudes - not the way the police are currently trying, but before they ever get near a licence test. Other countries do it. What's wrong with us?

Maybe you could provide an example of what other countries and how their driver training and licencing systems are different to ours? Then I can check crash statistics for those countries to see if it really is working.

[Daisy]

Scandinavia, straight off the top of my head. Finland in particular. They are allowed to be taught by a relative ... after said relative takes an instructors exam.
Germany? My German friend is absolutely mortified at our lacksadaisical attitude.
I don't know .. pick any country where students are taught what to do in adverse conditions.
I keep thinking about the kid we had here. Couldn't drive for shit and failed his test a couple of times before he barely scraped through. He drove too slow, according to his instructor. So they nursed him through a test and put him out on the road to learn. About 3 days he lasted, dropped 2 wheels in the gravel, sideways up the road and t-boned.
We have learner motorcyclists wobbling up and down our highways. I'm supposed to go and collect one this morning. If she is going to be out there the least I can do is chaperone her until she is proficient enough to be left on her own. We have had to take it upon ourselves to look after the noobies. This isn't satisfactory at all. We had a P plater on our refresher course - to learn stuff that she should have got on her P's. The problem is that they are too focussed on the test and aren't in the right frame of mind for learning ... and to think that car drivers don't even get that much.
I keep coming back to the same point - train them before they are turned loose. Are we really telling our kids, "Go and play in the traffic"?


[edit] I'm not going to pick up the noobie now. She fell off. She's ok, but her bike had to go in the ambulance.

[Smitty]

....We had a P plater on our refresher course - to learn stuff that she should have got on her P's. The problem is that they are too focussed on the test and aren't in the right frame of mind for learning ... and to think that car drivers don't even get that much.
I keep coming back to the same point - train them before they are turned loose. Are we really telling our kids, "Go and play in the traffic"?

the answer is...yes unfortunately

kids get taught to get a licence..NOT how to drive a car
truck, forklift crane and other machinery users must undergo training..and a pass isnt automatic.
Here we give them a piece of paper, a piece of metal weighing up to a couple of tonne, tell them
to fill it with ppl and then go play in the traffic at 100...

I have gone thru (at my own cost) 8 or 10 advanced , defensive or high performance driving courses
or refreshers over the past 20 years and on the day they usually have a beginners defensive course.
I cringe when I see P platers (who are the majority on these courses) NOT being able to drive thru a set of
witches hats at 50kmh.....without hitting them. At least these course attendees end with some skills they never had.
Its the other 99% who dont do these courses who are of concern


Smitty
(PS I have paid for members of my immediate family to do these courses and refeshers as I think they are worthwhile)

[Daisy]

Here we give them a piece of paper, a piece of metal weighing up to a couple of tonne, tell them
to fill it with ppl and then go play in the traffic at 100...

Yeah, but what's with telling them to go and play in the 110kmh traffic ... but don't go over 80?

[aardvark]

Scandinavia, straight off the top of my head. Finland in particular..... Germany?

The Germans have astounding driving ettiquite. However, they also get upset if you stand on the wrong side of an escalator!!

Also keep in mind that many of their highways are seperated by armco. The chance of anyone having a head on is pretty slim.

As for Finland, they only have a population of 5.3million as of the end of 2007. IN 2007 380 people were killed on their roads.
In comparison, we have a population of 21million and in 2007 we had 1,616 fatalities.

Do the sums, they aren't that different.

If Finland had the same population as us, using these figures, they'd have 1504 fatalities.

I'm certainly not disagreeing that we need better training and more incentive for people to do the right thing to keep their licences, far from it. Like I've said previously, I'm all for 5 yearly testing and better driver/rider training. I rarely see an L-plate motorcyclist who has even the most basic skills needed to stay alive. But somehow, they do. I put it down to sheer good luck.

But until one of our governments has the balls to implement said training and testing, what do we do? And as I've said before, what do we do with the people who continue to drive without a licence? Who pays to have your vehicl fixed when one of these unlicenced gumbies runs into you? Initially the insurance company, but since the unlicenced driver wont have insurance, they wont be able to pay for it, so all of our premiums go up. How do we pay for, and who pays for the extra expense involved?

I don't think there are any easy answers to the problem.

You won't be suprised to know that I think enforcement of the rules plays a major part in reducing road fatalities and better training etc as outlined above will help to reduce it further. I also feel that good drivers need to be rewarded. This would be a new concept for our government, but one that will need to be explored at some stage. For example, drivers who don't accumulate points on their licence or who aren't involved in an at fault crash should have reduced registration and inusrance costs. This would promote more responsible driving.

There are options, but with each of these options come other logistics that need to be sorted out.

[Slow and wobbly]

This thread has gone down a path that is treacherous, yet worthy of discussion. The problems associatted with the roads are incredibly complex and there are so many factors to be considered.
Perhaps......Given that this thread began in regards to the Vic blitz in force the underlying discussion be shifted to a new area?
Is it time that maybe KSRC was seen as a proactive force in regard to peoples thinking of road safety and a new forum area be created soley for it?
Look back at the past and see how many young guns have blazed onto this forum sprouting all sorts of shit about how fast they can ride and whether they should fit a turbo to their zzr250 and see how many times the well meaning and concerned members have shot them down. Or look at the new riders that come along here with a positive attitiude and grab at all the knowledge and experience they can get from both the forum and catching up with they're local members.
KSRC members for the most part have a decent grounding in road craft. It is here that they come to glean more information regarding their lifestyle afterall.
Just imagine a KSRC lobby group being consulted rather than those currently on the Government consultative gravy train.
mmmmmm gravy
Am I deluded?

[aardvark]

Perhaps......Given that this thread began in regards to the Vic blitz in force the underlying discussion be shifted to a new area?

I don't really want to get involved in any lenghty debate, posting long winded answers in relation to this particular matter.

[Slow and wobbly]

I don't really want to get involved in any lenghty debate, posting long winded answers in relation to this particular matter.

Well then bugger off then and just pick up the phone. Daisy's no. is 555 15478