How hard could it be???

[javaman]

Can't someone just look !

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... ection=all

[rooster]

If that's not a bloke then I can ride better than Mick Doohan and Valentio Rossi combined

[red_dave]

Hey!

Leave shim alone...

[Cath]

It's actually quite interesting when you read up about the issues (well, if you're interested in that sort of thing).

Yeah, we all know the difference between the usual male and the usual female, but life is messy and doesn't always fit into two neat boxes. When you start to think about it, it makes you question how we define male and female (which is something that is obvious to most of us), when those terms are applied to those who differ a little.
Genitals don't clear up the issue. There's a whole continuum of possibilities that differ from the norm.
Chromosomes don't clear up the issue. There's more variety than just XX and XY in the animal kingdom.
Brain scans don't clear up the issue. To determine if a brain has characteristics common to males or females requires slicing the brain open (so is only helpful posthumously) - a bit drastic just to find out what races she can compete in!
Then consider if the above three don't all agree with each other... then what?

Sorry to go on - I just find biology fascinating. And gender / sex issues is interesting.

Whatever the results or variations from the norm there are in this case, I feel extremely sorry for Semenya. She's been raised as a female, and thought of herself as female (AFAIK). Imagine how this must be making her feel, considering she probably just thought of herself as an athletic woman who wasn't lucky enough to be born with stereotypically / socially-defined "pretty features".

[Wattie]

on the morning show today, they were saying she doenst have the "internal" female organs ie uterus and stuff, and thre large amounts of testosterone kinda gave it up.

and the fact her voice has broken is a bit unfortunate.

Gotta feel a bit sorry for her/him, its not their fault, and for the whole world to find out,.

[DMonkey]

Extensive physical examinations of Semenya, who is just 18 and from a remote village in the country's far north, has shown the athlete is technically a hermaphrodite. Medical reports indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal male testes, which are producing large amounts of testosterone.

Quote is from here http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/secret ... 99453.html

I personally feel very sorry for her for one to have it splashed all over the media and the fact that she has external female and internal testicles in stead of ovaries it is very possible she didn’t know herself im sure they don’t have a very comprehensive health system back in Africa

[javaman]

Man.. that is sad. If *she* had been peeing sitting down her whole life, I reckon the world should give her a break.

Really weird what people demand sometimes... maybe next olympics all girl athlete should be checked that they have all the requirements ... ovaries, vagina, labia you name it I can volunteer

[DMonkey]

maybe next olympics all girl athlete should be checked that they have all the requirements ... ovaries, vagina, labia you name it I can volunteer

I tell you what you can have the discus, shot put and hammer throw girls

[mick_dundee]

Ask for a urine test, do you need a bottle or a bowl?

[Cath]

Extensive physical examinations of Semenya, who is just 18 and from a remote village in the country's far north, has shown the athlete is technically a hermaphrodite. Medical reports indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal male testes, which are producing large amounts of testosterone.

Quote is from here http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/secret ... 99453.html

I personally feel very sorry for her for one to have it splashed all over the media and the fact that she has external female and internal testicles in stead of ovaries it is very possible she didn’t know herself im sure they don’t have a very comprehensive health system back in Africa

Me too. I really, really feel for her I'm sure she didn't know. And what a sad way to find out
And through the media circus, she's known to everyone too - so not only has she lost the one thing she's been training for her whole life, she can't just quietly live as a woman, because a lot of (ignorant) people won't accept her as one. Imagine everyone knowing you had birth abnormalities - the sort of abnormalities that other people thought was appropriate to snigger over and question her identity.

Poor girl, she's only 18 and having to deal with this

[kaneg]

Yep I feel sorry for her

as far as deciding the sex, you guys get a bit over complicated ...
look in the wardrobe and see how many shoes and hand bags she got

[fireyrob]

Me too. I really, really feel for her I'm sure she didn't know. And what a sad way to find out

It is an aweful way to find out but surely the Athletics board in SA should have discretely tested for this before sending her out on the world stage! Someone at some point must have known??? Surely there are blood tests happening to elite Athletes at various stages???? Her poor family also... So many jokes but I wont persist today. Next thing we will see is male athletes being tested bc of man boobs

[Cath]

Me too. I really, really feel for her I'm sure she didn't know. And what a sad way to find out

It is an aweful way to find out but surely the Athletics board in SA should have discretely tested for this before sending her out on the world stage! Someone at some point must have known??? Surely there are blood tests happening to elite Athletes at various stages???? Her poor family also... So many jokes but I wont persist today. Next thing we will see is male athletes being tested bc of man boobs

I agree it would've been better if she had been tested earlier and found out discreetly, rather than in the world's spotlight.
Blood tests? She is intersexed, not a male with a vagina. I'd bet good money she isn't sporting a set of (usual male) XY chromosomes so what exactly, apart from chromosomes, are you going to look for in her blood? They did testosterone tests. She has testosterone levels 3 times higher than the average (I'm not sure if that's the average female *athlete* or the average female - huge difference, as I bet most top level female athletes naturally cluster at the top of the average testosterone level). OK, so she has testosterone levels 3 times higher than expected - that sounds convincing and impressive. However, males have levels 40 to 60 times higher than the average female, so it sounds a lot less open and shut now. Do her internal testes make her a male? Does her vagina make her a female? Are her chromosomes more important than her genitals? What if her chromosomes are XXY? Or XO? Or something else entirely?


The reason it's taken them so long and is such a controversial issue is exactly that - there is no single thing that they can hold up and say "This is the marker of whether or not the person in question is a female". All they can do is gather the conflicting evidence and try to make a decision.
The vast majority of people go through life with an easy and familiar binary view of things. Man or woman. Penis or vagina. XX or XY. It holds true for almost every situation the average person comes across, so it isn't surprising. But it also isn't reality - human biology is so much more variable than that. For the ~1% of intersexed individuals, they don't fit into either box that the rest of us try to force them into.

[fireyrob]

It is my uneducated opinion that chromosomes determine sexuality, thus the blood tests... Reason I suggest is that if she is proven to be XX but naturally carrying male testicles giving her high levels of testosterone is she really cheating? Ultimately there's probably some health risks identified and hopefully now rectified. To me this says alot for SA having any concern for their Athletes welfare and more concern for Gold Medals!

[Cath]

Fair enough Firey.
What about if her #46 chromosomes aren't XX OR XY? That's what I'm trying to say - it isn't always clear.