Back Brake - You better stop me .....

[Nanna10r]

OK all I jacked this From Quarkz post re her Back brake spring
I'd really like to know how others feel about &/or use the Back Brake.
Not because i think I'm Right in how i use them but because every seems to have a very strong opinion An the more opionions we get the better our choices are, surely... Note this is a little long (sorry). and those who gave an opionion on the other post please do so here .... thanks this is when it started to really hijack the other post .....snip.....

snip... I believe that Colin Edwards has his rears disconnected!.....
Sean zx7r

Didn't he used to be a Superbike racer ???
I Dont see that as much of an argument not to use them Sean.
I use mine lots in the wet.

Cheers Brett

we had the beginings of this discussion on that wet day on the Gold Coast. I never touched the rear that day. I know that some riding schools notably Top Rider encourage it, whereas Aegis (where I did my Qride)didn't rule its use out but discouraged it as part of general cornering. I shudder when I hear newbies talking about using the rear brake, it each to his own but i use the front brakes when i'm upright and the throttle and tyres when i'm cranked over (wet or dry).
The argument i was making reference Colin Edwards is that if you need the rear brakes for cornering you are either going too fast into the corner or not leaning enough. Colin Edwards like most of the Aussie and US racers learnt on Moto-X where you're on the rear lots, he still has the rear brake pedal but its not connected to anything. Watch Edwards next race and see how smooth and fast he is in the corners, hes not a god like Rossi but probably the most technically correct rider on the circuit, and his consistent results are testiment to that (except when Caporossi took him out in a rush of blood!).
Sean

Good point but ......
Brett

[Nanna10r]

Yep Sean, Fair Nuf but like you said each to his own. I still have 2 points to bear in mind for this type of discussion:

#1. I think anyone whos on any brake well into a corner is putting too much trust into inconsistant factors such their ability, Bikes status, the tyres, the What Ifs & the road surface. Fine for a Racetrack but most of us aren't on Racetracks as much as any of us would like.

#2. We have all levels of rider reading this Forum from those whom I think are FAST like Yourself, Young Bob, S10, Glenn, Madkaw, Matty, etc etc all the way through to those Yet to Throw a leg over let alone purchase a bike of their own. I'm more concerned what these guys take away from my posts as they may have no other Reference points to govern their actions.

cheers Brett.

[Ratmick]

My 2c, for what it's worth (I'm not really qualified being a relative newbie).

I use the rear when in first gear and slowing to a dead stop, especially on grass/gravel/wet mud/ice. Front brakes are bad in these situations, especially with a heavy pig of a bike and short legs (and I have found out the hard way).

I also use it to 'balance' the front brake when slowing for a corner (the ZZR dives really deeply under hard braking). Depending on the corner I may trail it through the corner (and not use the front at all). By 'corners' I'm meaning right-angles, not bends. Usually with gravel and sometimes frost.

Once I'm up above 20-30km/h I don't use it much at all, wet or dry.

Edit>> And what Yoda said in a later post...it's also good when you REALLY want to stop in a hurry (like when a horse runs out in front of you)

[redzedx7r]

sorry never ridden on ice except on my old malvern star going down the back of Macedon toward Hesket and ended up in the bush cause my back brakes (thats all i Had) didint work. I grew up in Romsey
Sean
btw what do you call relative newbie?

[Ratmick]

btw what do you call relative newbie?

Hi Sean,

I've been riding since August 2001. I grew up with pushbikes and only abandoned them when I got my L's at the ripe old age of 37. Never ridden a traillie, always been too short

Bought a GPX250 as my first bike, traded her in on the ZZR600 in December 2002 the day my P's finished. In hindsight, may have been a mistake, 29HP to 100HP in one jump for an aging saggy-arsed short bastard like myself was a bit of an eye-opener. She's about 70kg heavier as well, but shits all over the GPX in handling.

[Smitty]

back brake?????
BIG topic!

firstly
the back brake can be used to steady the bike at low speeds..in fact it is part of the licence test here in Vic...slow speed manouvering using back brake
always use a bit of back brake while doing a slow Uturn in the side street
you will be surprised, how it steadies the bike and makes the Uturn easy

then
and there are lots of different opinions, but according to the Poleeeece
and some of the Superbike school instructors....
2 wheels braking on a bike will always stop quicker than one wheel being braked, so for emergencies when the semi pulls out in front of you
forget niceties and use both brakes!!

next
braking in a hispeed corner (on the road, not the track)
is generally not recommended in the middle of the turn
just about all bikes will stand up if you do this
and you will have to muscle them around a corner
if you want to steady or 'hunker down' the bike a bit as you corner,
a bit of back brake on the entrance to the corner is the go
why?
back brakes do not tend to upset a bake's stance, as much as the font brake and tend to make the bike sit down a bit

personally??
I use back brakes in emergencies and slow turns out the front of my place
and now and then ..out on the road as I approach a corner

my 2c

cheers

yoda
------------------
we need more of the Force to beat them Yammies!!!!

[redzedx7r]

well you've got about four months on me i bought my first bike in the begining of 2002. I rode other peoples trailies a few times on farms etc before that, but not to the extent that i would consider myself competent on them. My first road bike was the zzr600 and i was 36yrs old. So I consider myself just out of newbie!
I don't think you've made too much of a jump, most of the zzr600 power is up at the top end and when I first rode it I short shifted a fair bit till i became comfortable with the power.
To be honest most of my riding technique comes from my brothers who were pretty good teachers. They made a real effort to spend time with me taking me out on a ride at least once a week when i was learning on top of the lessons i did with Aegis. They encouraged me to ride fast, confident and well within my limits.
I don't pretend to know it all but another way to balance the bike without rear brake if you want to go hard is to 'blip the throttle' for some engine braking before entering the corner. It takes a bit of practice but the zzr600 are conducive to it because they love to rev, as you become more of a gun at it you start to back it in like Troy or Vale! Now that would show up those girlie slipper clutch zx10's
Sean

[Felix]

As explained to us during the TopRider course, the idea is to not need brakes in the middle of a corner at all. You need to judge your speed on entry. Being human, we will of course stuff this up at times, and therefore need to shed some speed.

They recommend use of the rear brake for several reasons:

* closing throttle can upset balance of bike causing it to run wide (bad)
* front brake can cause bike to stand up (very bad)
* others that may come to me...better control in wet and gravel come to mind

They did mention that some 'other' places taught rear braking as optional. They suggested we forget the 'others' teachings. Their rationale was that the above reasons apply, and the rear brake becomes the easiest way to control the bike mid corner once you learn how/when to use it. Oh, they also made the point that if you learn to use it all the time, you are much less likely to lock it when things get ugly and you go looking for more stopping power.

TopRider also conduct SuperBike School, and race bikes themselves, so I guess that they know more than me...therefore I will practice what I have learnt, and let it become my natural riding style.

[aardvark]

I aint no Valentino Rossi, but here's my opinion.

I use my rear brake for low speed manouvering as per Ian's discussion. Tight u-turns are so much easier with a little rear brake.

Entering sharp, relatively high speed corners, I like to feel my front brake, just to make sure it's there. It's a bad habbit i've developed since writing my last bike off in a corner.

If you need to brake whilst mid corner, you are going too fast and it easily unsettles the person/s behind you. If you aren't going to fast, but you think you are, and you're scared that you can't lean it any further, you normally can, in which case, your throttle is your friend. Don't throttle off, that'll make you run wide. Don't brake, that'll stand the bike up and you'll run wide. Just twist the throttle a bit more, and you'll normally get through the corner ok.

I've been riding bikes since I was 5 or 6. Having grown up in the country and spending my days riding dirt bikes, you learn real quick that front brakes on dirt bikes are next to bloody useless. It's opposite on a road bike.

In the wet or in emergency situations, front and rear brakes together are the way to go. But, after having ridden the K1200S (ride report pending), I have nothing but praise for the linked ABS system. If you get the chance, take one for a cruise, go as fast as you dare, then pull the clutch in and grab the front brake lever as hard as you can. I'm a firm believer now that all bikes should be equipped with ABS. (I can't wait for the arguments against this....)

[Zteven]

I'm with the 'leave it alone' mentality, ONLY time I do use it is as a hand brake on hills. Now I don't claim to be an expert, but have been riding since the mid '80s. If things aren't going right mid way through a corner Force the bike lower, ie: left hand sweeper & starting to run wide I push out with my left hand, it's really surprising how far you can take a bike down before it'll scrape. Only thing I do know is the rear disc will look grotty & in some cases get surface rust from lack of use.
my 2c worth

[redzedx7r]

I aint no Valentino Rossi, but here's my opinion.

I use my rear brake for low speed manouvering as per Ian's discussion. Tight u-turns are so much easier with a little rear brake.

Entering sharp, relatively high speed corners, I like to feel my front brake, just to make sure it's there. It's a bad habbit i've developed since writing my last bike off in a corner.

If you need to brake whilst mid corner, you are going too fast and it easily unsettles the person/s behind you. If you aren't going to fast, but you think you are, and you're scared that you can't lean it any further, you normally can, in which case, your throttle is your friend. Don't throttle off, that'll make you run wide. Don't brake, that'll stand the bike up and you'll run wide. Just twist the throttle a bit more, and you'll normally get through the corner ok.

I've been riding bikes since I was 5 or 6. Having grown up in the country and spending my days riding dirt bikes, you learn real quick that front brakes on dirt bikes are next to bloody useless. It's opposite on a road bike.

In the wet or in emergency situations, front and rear brakes together are the way to go. But, after having ridden the K1200S (ride report pending), I have nothing but praise for the linked ABS system. If you get the chance, take one for a cruise, go as fast as you dare, then pull the clutch in and grab the front brake lever as hard as you can. I'm a firm believer now that all bikes should be equipped with ABS. (I can't wait for the arguments against this....)

you couldn't help yourself could you, just had to slip in the Beemer reference somewhere
On the whole Jas i have to agree with your sentiments, one thing i didn't say Brett was that at the QR 31/7 track day the bloke on the yellow 999 backend low sided because he got on the rear brake (he was on it heaps earlier) when he was too hot into turn #6 probably hit both front and rear at the same time > lightened up the rear and lost traction et voila $3-4k worth the fairing and fancy indicator mirror damage.
As Aardvaark was intimating throttle control on road bikes is critical, when i was learning on the zzr600 my bro had me practicing throttle control by rolling on and off the throttle (on a straight section) just to get a feel of what it was doing to the bike dynamics. I have also done Mt Nebo/Glorious in third gear and trying not to use the brakes (not going flat out ofcourse) ala Superbike school, it is easier than you think.

[Rossi]

I'm a firm believer now that all bikes should be equipped with ABS. (I can't wait for the arguments against this....)

you asked for it.......
No problems with ABS but as for linked brakes then just nip out and talk to your colleagues who ride them all day for their job jase, they have had the linked brakes taken off & the reason that most will give, is that in low speed manouvering when they touch the back brake it applies the front too and the BM's are bloody heavy when they start to go over
and wouldn't you feel a dork, in the middle of the city on a pleece bike, in uniform, with your trusty steed looking like a dying fly

[ty]

Like most things bike releated I think it's a case of 'do what works for you'
Some people braking really hard with the front won't have much use for the rear cos the arse is up in the air.
Those who keep both wheels on the ground may benefit from using the rear brake.
Some ppl have the 'panic instinct' while braking hard which means they use too much rear and step the bike out too far. Which may be bad.

It's a case of newbies trying things out for themselves - lightly and slowly though or you'll screw up.

Personally I use the rear a fair bit - mostly lane splitting.
I use it lightly while corning sometimes, though I've been trying to avoid that lately just to see what it's like.
While on my P's I also had a panic situation which actually saved me I think - braking hard both ends and the rear came around making me stop almost parallel to the rear of the car in front, but that was lucky cos the car behind me stopped a foot away from me - if I stayed straight I would've been squished.

My suggestion to newbies (and in some respects I still consider myself one) is to listen to all and see what works for you. Everybody's riding style is different and needs different techniques. Try it low speed and see if it works. If you're in the habit of riding the rear while cornering try cornering without it for a bit - or vice versa. Just don't go over the top and screw it all up.

Very little on a motorcycle is wasted space, and the rear brake is there for a reason. It's power also pales in comparison to the front brakes for a reason.

ty
PS. the 'rider's choice' is apparent to me in discussion of counter-steering - everyone talks of pushing left to go left and pushing right to go right. For the most part I push left to go left and PULL left to go right - I find that for me this makes throttle control mid-corner easier. As I said - each to their own.

[kwaka]

another non expert here
i tend to use my front brake as th main brake(as i suspect everyone else does) the rear brake i only use as a manouvering aid at low speeds.
i tend to do this as to keep me in touch with how to use the rear brake.
i found that also when i'm braking in a emergency i bring the rear brake into play later and light (progressively going firmer as you slow) as all the weight goes to the front making it that much easier for the rear to lock up if you go hard front and back at the same time.
anyway i think this is a good excuse to go riding with people as you can take notes and learn from the different levels of expirience and riding style

[aardvark]

I'm a firm believer now that all bikes should be equipped with ABS. (I can't wait for the arguments against this....)

No problems with ABS but as for linked brakes then just nip out and talk to your colleagues who ride them all day for their job jase, they have had the linked brakes taken off

The K1200 is a bit different to beemers of old. The front brake is linked with the rear, but the back brake is a standalone job. I guess they realised that some people like to use the rear on it's own.

Before riding this bike, I was of the opinion that ABS was for schmucks. My opinion is now obviously quite different. Either that, or I've become a schmuck. One of the blokes in our group had a moment, that saw him cutting across the grass and towards the armco. He still swears, that had he been on any other bike, he would have been in the fence.

As you will see when I write my ride report next week (5 days off!!), the K1200 is a bike that is very easy to ride fast.