Kawasaki Sportsbike Riders Club - Australia - Online Forum

hmmm....a low side - yes has happened to me. I was riding a KLR (yes a kwaka!!! a road trailie) with hard road tyres. I was cornering and tipping it in a fair way as I was grinding the pegs and the front washed out. I think it was asking too much of the tyres and the fact that the pegs dragging couterlevered some weight off the tyres and so they lost grip.

I think the "wrong things that happen" are often from our own input. Such as has already been mentioned such as riding above yoru skill level, tensing up etc. I think when we travel through a corner at a faster rate to which we feel comfortable everything happens faster. SO what would normally be a good distrance to brake has much quicker and we do not know how much to adjust to this so either brake too early and think im going too slow, or brake too late and shit ourselves. Our timing of what we do gets thrown off. When you think about it most roads have posted or advisory speed limits. As a general guidline if these were to be followed they would be roughly within reason about the same amount of cornering stress etc. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking. So corners that have the greatest difference between teh speed we are spose to do them at and actually do them at is where there will be the biggest change to our timing of a corner. Our reaction times are generally about 0.6/0.7 of a second. So at second at 100 km/h we travel a lot farther than at 60 km/h. When our timing goes off and self preservation thing may kick in and so we grab brakes to slow things down to where our timing can be comfortable. Or we freeze and "brace for impact". When our neck muscles tense we cant turn our heads. This makes our arms lock up and we dont turn. We often focus on where we dont wanna go, and we all know about target fixation!!!!

Cheers

Well this is a very interesting thread, and here is my 2c worth.....

1. Trust your Tyres should be second nature to all riders. If you don't trust them, you should reconsider riding.

2. My tyre bloke here told me a few years ago........the worst tyres made these days are better than the abilities of 95% of the riders out there. Truer words have never been spoken.

3. Every rider should read 'Twist of the Wrist' by Keith Code, and 'Techniques of Motorcycle Road Racing' by Kenny Roberts. There is one paragraph in the Kenny Roberts book that I have *always* tried to apply, and it is so simple........in order to maintain control through a corner, you steer with the throttle.

Sounds strange ? Well its not, and someone on an earlier post hit the nail on the head with a comment about steering through a corner with the throttle open, not closed (or on the brakes !! I mean, who does that hmm, visions of the Black Spur gum trees are flooding into my brain cell....)

Its way easier to control *everything* your bike does, when you are on the gas. Even if it is only *just* on the gas, it is easier...

Tones wrote: We often focus on where we dont wanna go, and we all know about target fixation!!!!

Cheers

I have some errr 2nd hand experience with target fixation Tones

A few years back now, on Boxing day, a mate and I went for an afternoon blast on the dirties. Running along a straight dirt road at err speed... I came across another rider heading towards me. He must have had his head up his arse, as he was on my side of the road, and was travelling fast also. I could see that he at this stage hadn't noticed me, so I moved to the other (wrong) side of the road. After I had done this, he looked up, saw me, and moved back onto his side of the road So I moved back to my side, we were getting pretty close by now. He moved back to my side. It was then that I started thinking....this is gunna hurt. So I headed bush off to the left. Guess what?.....He followed.................... I woke up a little while later, 14 different bones were broken, and I wasn't feeling all that good about riding muddaboiks!

Gosling1 wrote:Well this is a very interesting thread, and here is my 2c worth.....

1. Trust your Tyres should be second nature to all riders. If you don't trust them, you should reconsider riding.

2. My tyre bloke here told me a few years ago........the worst tyres made these days are better than the abilities of 95% of the riders out there. Truer words have never been spoken.

3. Every rider should read 'Twist of the Wrist' by Keith Code, and 'Techniques of Motorcycle Road Racing' by Kenny Roberts. There is one paragraph in the Kenny Roberts book that I have *always* tried to apply, and it is so simple........in order to maintain control through a corner, you steer with the throttle.

Sounds strange ? Well its not, and someone on an earlier post hit the nail on the head with a comment about steering through a corner with the throttle open, not closed (or on the brakes !! I mean, who does that hmm, visions of the Black Spur gum trees are flooding into my brain cell....)

Its way easier to control *everything* your bike does, when you are on the gas. Even if it is only *just* on the gas, it is easier...

i agree with everyting gos says but i'll add one little thing.

i have found tyres, suspension etc to be a very personal thing, just cause yer mates used dunstone BTM1's or metrelli sportec corsa's does'nt mean you will get the same sensation as he does. different profiles suit different riders and different styles of bikes.

same with suspension. go with what works for you and what FEELS good. have the suspension properly set up and it will make a huge difference to your confidence - and thats worth 20 horses alone

and fer far sake dont over ride your ability - that was one of the things about our ride the other day - no brown undies - always in control, even when you see gravel on the road but with that bit in reserve we all sailed thru no problemo.

i learnt to ride by following guys who could really ride - i'd study them (while they were close enough) and tried to do the same. but to this day i can still not figure out how after following tim for all those years we ended up with 2 completly different riding styles.

Gosling1 wrote:
3. Every rider should read 'Twist of the Wrist' by Keith Code, and 'Techniques of Motorcycle Road Racing' by Kenny Roberts. There is one paragraph in the Kenny Roberts book that I have *always* tried to apply, and it is so simple........in order to maintain control through a corner, you steer with the throttle.

as I said...roll on roll off as you need
it really makes it easy

I find the hold it flat, tip in hard and hope for the best scenario works for me...

But seriously, this is a good topic, and once again makes me think about road riding again. The only riding I do on the road these days is commuting, I often feel the need to go for blast but haven't been on one in many months. I am to worried about losing my licence and my limbs, but at the same time I just cannot afford to get to the track anywhere near often enough to make the improvements I need. So I wonder if I might make up for the shortfall on the road, but it really isn't the place to practice racecraft.

Meh, I dunno what to do.

There's some "Brilliant" advice in this thread for all riders, new and old.

I've low sided, hi sided, Flipped, launched up gutters, T boned a car, rear ended car, & even centre punched my way through a wooden "turn that way theres no bridge here atm plank" . As Strika said way back when we were lads there was just the "Try & keep up with ya LOONEY mates riding school of broken bikes & bones institute for the insanely insured".

Been some great points. I'd just like to add a couple of things that i have been fortunate enough to have been told by those with with more experience & skill then I.

Firstly "soft hands" i tell myself this all the time in wet weather or dodgy conditions. This will make you relax & let the bike do what it's designed to do, which is stay on it's wheels.

Secondly "Eyes Up" keep looking past the thing distracting you be it junk on the road, or your mate about to run off the road right in front of you. I'd rather mis seeing the accident then beome part of it.

For group rides always wave anyone faster past "you'll learn nothing trying to keep in front of them" Faster guys should in return put the blinker on & wait to waved past, if everyone did it there would be bugger all crashes on group rides imho.

Keep up the burning good oil guys. Always good to learn more of this stuff.

Cheers Brett

Pontikat wrote:
For group rides always wave anyone faster past "you'll learn nothing trying to keep in front of them" Faster guys should in return put the blinker on & wait to waved past, if everyone did it there would be bugger all crashes on group rides imho.

Keep up the burning good oil guys. Always good to learn more of this stuff.

Cheers Brett

Good stuf Brett. Agree with pretty much everything except the group rides stuff. I was with a club for many years which did a group ride EVERY weekend. 400-700k's in a day. And I mean EVERY weekend.

On a group ride the best thing to do is stick to the basic road rules. This waving people past shit is a top way for some accidents. Follow the road rules and all will be OK. When overtaking, ensure that you not only look to see that it is clear ahead, but also check your mirrors to ensure you are not being passed before you pull out. They are the road rules!!!

To me, if learner or inexperienced riders are having to watch in their mirrors for indicators to tell them someone wants to pass, they are more likely to lose concentration on what they are doing. Far better to allow them to concentrate on the job at hand, and use the mirrors to check it's clear before they go to overtake.

I also understand that KSRC has a no overtaking in corners policy. One which I believe can cause more accidents than it can avoid. Once again, I will follow the road rules, and I will overtake, when it is safe, always ensuring a safe distance is maintained. I will pass people in corners too. Provided it is legal and safe to do so.

I do however believe that on a ride where there are riders of varying skill, that the more skilled/experienced riders should give less skilled/experienced riders a little more room than normal, for sure.

Strika wrote:I also understand that KSRC has a no overtaking in corners policy. One which I believe can cause more accidents than it can avoid.

Do you really believe that? I dont think I have ever felt as safe as I do on KSRC runs.... because I take the best line for ME in the corners... and I dont have to worry about XYZ pulling up next to me in the corners to come out a bit faster...

If you log on to Netrider and check their "oops I crashed during a group run" reports you will find it was nearly always caused by one of three things...

1. A rider riding well beyond his skill level
2. A rider running off the inside of a corner because someone was passing him on the outside
3. A rider running off the outside of a corner because he was trying to pass someone

Yes you are right, it is safe to do so in some circumstances, but there are many more where it ISNT safe to do so... Why freak the "slower" rider out by passing them in a corner... Sure you get where you want to go faster, but what about them?

Stereo wrote:

Strika wrote:I also understand that KSRC has a no overtaking in corners policy. One which I believe can cause more accidents than it can avoid.

Do you really believe that?
2. A rider running off the inside of a corner because someone was passing him on the outside
3. A rider running off the outside of a corner because he was trying to pass someone

Yes you are right, it is safe to do so in some circumstances, but there are many more where it ISNT safe to do so... Why freak the "slower" rider out by passing them in a corner... Sure you get where you want to go faster, but what about them?

Whole heartedly. I also believe the accidents you speak of would be where riders are sharing the same lane. A no no in my book. If we are going thru a left hander, which has a dotted line down the centre, and there is no oncoming traffic, and I decide to pass you on the outside, how does that effect you???? And how is it deemed dangerous? Provided I allow a little more room for the more inexperienced rider?

I have seen the KSRC passing program in action and to me it's more dangerous than just folowing the road rules. I had a rider come up next to me on a straight, still in my lane, while heading towards a right hand bend. They pulled alongside me, then proceeded to just sit next to me, with the corner approaching, obviously wanting me to back off. I would consider it a lot more dangerous. Riding with you guys or not, I will follow common sense and pass when it is appropriate (spell) , on the Right hand side of the other rider, and in the right hand lane.

I ride sensibly and within my abilities at all times, and even less experienced riders who have been riding with me will note that while I ride briskly I never put anyone else in danger. If a rider is so frightened of being overtaken they should not be on the road. If you are a slow learner rider (which is cool we all start somewhere) are the faster cars going to follow the KSRC ride rules??? I doubt they will. So why not get learner riders used to riding within the road rules from the get go. Remember they will not always be riding with us!!!!!!!

Strika wrote:
I also understand that KSRC has a no overtaking in corners policy. One which I believe can cause more accidents than it can avoid. Once again, I will follow the road rules, and I will overtake, when it is safe, always ensuring a safe distance is maintained. I will pass people in corners too. Provided it is legal and safe to do so.

I'd never pass on a corner and. I scared myself to shit being passed on a straight road let alone on corners Notably Dan's kerker wailing out of nowhere

I think not passing on corners contributed alot to safe group riding of ksrc. Not to compare with other group rides, but seriously, coming off in a group ride is quite normal for some just look for the word "incident" on these guys :

http://ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au/~ben/mtcv/2006calendar.html

"Life support was removed a week later and he died peacefully on Thu 26th. Funeral details soon."

"Incident: Shane crashed CBR900 on Alpine Way 3.5 km west side of Dead Horse Gap (near Thredbo). Two broken ribs, 3 nights in Cooma Hospital, expect home on Monday 30th. Bike: minor cosmetic"

"Incident: Simon, CBR929, Torbreck River Road, minor cosmetic"

And those are within 2 months alone

i was reading an article in a porsche magazine a while ago.
it was an interview/test drive with porche's oldest and most respected test driver.
they went out to a track, he drove around the track at an even 60kph and said "hold the steering steady and accelerate, you run wide, decellerate and you turn sharp" "that's all you need to know about oversteer and understeer"
works so well, my entry speed aint all that great, but as i roll on the throttle through a corner, i push on the inside handlebar accordingly to hold my line, and i come out quick.

javaman wrote:

Strika wrote:
I also understand that KSRC has a no overtaking in corners policy. One which I believe can cause more accidents than it can avoid. Once again, I will follow the road rules, and I will overtake, when it is safe, always ensuring a safe distance is maintained. I will pass people in corners too. Provided it is legal and safe to do so.

I'd never pass on a corner and. I scared myself to shit being passed on a straight road let alone on corners Notably Dan's kerker wailing out of nowhere

I think not passing on corners contributed alot to safe group riding of ksrc. Not to compare with other group rides, but seriously, coming off in a group ride is quite normal for some just look for the word "incident" on these guys :

http://ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au/~ben/mtcv/2006calendar.html

"Life support was removed a week later and he died peacefully on Thu 26th. Funeral details soon."

"Incident: Shane crashed CBR900 on Alpine Way 3.5 km west side of Dead Horse Gap (near Thredbo). Two broken ribs, 3 nights in Cooma Hospital, expect home on Monday 30th. Bike: minor cosmetic"

"Incident: Simon, CBR929, Torbreck River Road, minor cosmetic"

And those are within 2 months alone

Yeah there is a reason that they have a lot of offs, I know these guys well, and they ride like nutters for the most part. I wouldn't reccomend this club for the really inexperienced or timid!!! However Andi, It has nothing to do with their passing procedures. The "Incidents" you list are all single rider accidents. Not caused by passing!!! So it is a little out of context to be putting that up as an example........

diesel wrote:i was reading an article in a porsche magazine a while ago.
it was an interview/test drive with porche's oldest and most respected test driver.
they went out to a track, he drove around the track at an even 60kph and said "hold the steering steady and accelerate, you run wide, decellerate and you turn sharp" "that's all you need to know about oversteer and understeer"
works so well, my entry speed aint all that great, but as i roll on the throttle through a corner, i push on the inside handlebar accordingly to hold my line, and i come out quick.

Bikes work just a little differently to that Porsche Diesel!! A bike will hold a tighter line with throttle and will run wide without it. Very differently to a porsche. And then just to confuse things even more, when you go past that point, too much thottle can cause front end push. Bikes are a little more complex than that Porsche. Porsche's dont lean over!!

Strika wrote:

javaman wrote:

Strika wrote:
I also understand that KSRC has a no overtaking in corners policy. One which I believe can cause more accidents than it can avoid. Once again, I will follow the road rules, and I will overtake, when it is safe, always ensuring a safe distance is maintained. I will pass people in corners too. Provided it is legal and safe to do so.

I'd never pass on a corner and. I scared myself to shit being passed on a straight road let alone on corners Notably Dan's kerker wailing out of nowhere

I think not passing on corners contributed alot to safe group riding of ksrc. Not to compare with other group rides, but seriously, coming off in a group ride is quite normal for some just look for the word "incident" on these guys :

http://ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au/~ben/mtcv/2006calendar.html

"Life support was removed a week later and he died peacefully on Thu 26th. Funeral details soon."

"Incident: Shane crashed CBR900 on Alpine Way 3.5 km west side of Dead Horse Gap (near Thredbo). Two broken ribs, 3 nights in Cooma Hospital, expect home on Monday 30th. Bike: minor cosmetic"

"Incident: Simon, CBR929, Torbreck River Road, minor cosmetic"

And those are within 2 months alone

Yeah there is a reason that they have a lot of offs, I know these guys well, and they ride like nutters for the most part. I wouldn't reccomend this club for the really inexperienced or timid!!! However Andi, It has nothing to do with their passing procedures. The "Incidents" you list are all single rider accidents. Not caused by passing!!! So it is a little out of context to be putting that up as an example........

True. Nothing to do with ride policy. Just pointing out that some group rides have many offs, this includes netrider (nothing to do with passing policy as well).

I can't remember the last time ksrc ride had an off. Last I remember was joint netrider-ksrc ride and some netrider guy had an off. Then the ronster off.

As for that group, I rode with Stew few times now and was invited to join them. Don't actually mind riding every weekend religiously except that I have to work on sundays now, and the $40