Being A Member Of A Motorcycle Club Is Now Illegal

[dave#3]

The propsed laws are more akin to those that existed within the Spanish Inqusition !

Actually, the proposed OMC laws would also fit pretty neatly into communist China and most Middle Eastern nations too. Coincidentally I think the Federal Government also borrowed it's latest mandatory Internet filtering laws from the same rule books. There's a set of nations we can all aspire to become reminiscent of .

[mike-s]

The propsed laws are more akin to those that existed within the Spanish Inqusition !

Actually, the proposed OMC laws would also fit pretty neatly into communist China and most Middle Eastern nations too. Coincidentally I think the Federal Government also borrowed it's latest mandatory Internet filtering laws from the same rule books. There's a set of nations we can all aspire to become reminiscent of .

Shit, you said exactly what i was thinking.

[aardvark]

But they, like everyone else, have a right to the basic presumption of "innocence until proven guilty". Through a court-based system. Not a piece of paper.

I didn't really want to get "involved" in this conversation as a) I don't think it'd be totally appropriate and b) there's no point debating with a group of people who really have NFI!!

However Gos, the above line struck a chord. It's all well and good to say that they should be proven guilty in a court (I'm not going to start on the court system!!), but when these "people" (and I use the term loosely) rarely end up in court for half the crimes they alledgedly commit, how is the court system supposed to sort them out?

Get beaten up by club member for being in the wrong spot at the wrong time? Decide to take the matter to court? Good luck with that. Oh, and make sure to let your family know that they should also expect a visit or two. That's one example. There's plenty of others.

There was a story in the state paper several weeks ago regarding the fact that many members appear to suddenly turn over a new leaf when they become members. Well, duh!

[Gosling1]

This discussion will be difficult for you mate, I fully appreciate that. But if OMCG members rarely end up in court for the crimes they allegedly commit, then the fault lies not with the alleged crimes, but with the process used to prove that the crimes were actually committed. The whole system of law is based upon evidence presented. Its the job of the law-enforcement agencies to obtain and present that evidence, in a manner that cannot be defended, so that crimes can be proven. However, sometimes the end result may not always be what the prosecution is seeking, but thats why defence lawyers exist in the first place. Otherwise why have an evidentiary-based system in the first place ?

I know as well as you do that the court systems have systemic failures, and the recent example in WA regarding the bashing of a copper and the defence presented to the courts, are a perfect example of how the system does not work *100%* of the time. It also resulted in an outburst from the WA Commish, who basically said that the people of WA will now get the police service they deserve - intimating that WA coppers will now just ignore violent offences, and let the idiots take care of themselves. Its a step back to the dark ages.

Not all of us here have NFI - some have been on the pointy end of dodgy police charges, fought them, and won.

The basic problem with outlawing groups like bikers, is ....who is next in line ? Abo's ?? Leb's ?? Anyone that the government of the day takes a dim view of ?? Bloody hell the Collingwood Cheer Squad is in a spot of bother

I am not preaching here to defend the bikers culture of violence etc - the problem is that this culture can and should be tackled by the existing laws which already accomodate these problems...... thats my take on it anyway...

[aardvark]

Not all of us here have NFI

Sorry, I didn't mean to intimate that everyone here had no idea. I had intended to include "many of whom", but the fingers didn't type what the brain was thinking.

It's a little hard to prove that a particular individual committed a crime, such as a serious assault, when the only real evidence you have is that of 5, 10 or even more witnesses. All of those witnesses are able to name the person involved but then, for some mysterious reason, none of them are prepared to give evidence in court when it comes time to. Anyway, this is getting off topic.

At the end of the day, something needs to be done. These arse-clowns are out of control. If anyone thinks they aren't, I'm sure there are plenty of innocent people who have been hurt recently who would be happy to disagree. I'm sure if anyone has a real alternative to the laws the SA government are implementing, then the other state governments would love to hear from you.

[dave#3]

As if there wasn't already enough evidence that politicians make idiotic knee-jerk reactions, how about this beauty from Barnaby Joyce of the National Party - arm the airport police with machine guns. On what planet is that an acceptable reaction to the bashing death of a man at the hands of a group of other men. what next, arm mall cops with rocket launchers because two school kids got into a blue outside Coles. Unbelievable.

It seems to me that there's two distinct views being portrayed in this thread. Both sides seem to believe that OMCs are full of asshats, and that criminals should be prosecuted - the difference is that one side is prepared to give up their personal rights for the perceived greater good of the community, whereas the other side is prepared to stand up for their personal rights for the actual greater good of the community.

The proposed laws are lazy, ill-conceived and will ultimately be deemed unenforceable, but, like machine guns at the airport, appease the small-minded majority who want to see swift and decisive re-action (as opposed to real action).

I value a fair and reasonable legal and judicial system that promotes equity, justice and human rights and recognises that evil prospers when good men do nothing ..... Or maybe I'm just one of the group with NFI

[robracer]

Or maybe I'm just one of the group with NFI

Dave you can be the club pres & gos can be the Sgt at arms..... NFI MCC

I keep looking at the title of this thread & think it needs to be changed

[Six Addict]

so change it mod

[dave#3]

Or maybe I'm just one of the group with NFI

Dave you can be the club pres & gos can be the Sgt at arms..... NFI MCC

I think it should be called NFI OMC to ensure we're quickly added to the list of proscribed organisations .

[aardvark]

Or maybe I'm just one of the group with NFI

Instead of considering you as being one with NFI, Dave, I'll just accept it as prima facie that you aren't fully aware of the facts.

Just out of interest, have you read the bill in its entirity?

[dave#3]

Or maybe I'm just one of the group with NFI

Instead of considering you as being one with NFI, Dave, I'll just accept it as prima facie that you aren't fully aware of the facts.

Just out of interest, have you read the bill in its entirity?

No, I haven't read the bill in it's entirety (however I have read excerpts, summaries and informed opinions about it), and no, I don't have a law degree or any experience in front-line law enforcement or the judicial system either. Yes, I'm espousing my opinion which, like most opinions, may closely resemble an asshole (and yes, I have one of those too), but, I'm yet to see any evidence to suggest that the letter of the law - and let's not forget that's what we're talking about, we're not debating the spirit of the law - is in keeping with the presumption of innocence, which is a cornerstone of our judicial system.

I like an open, intelligent debate as much as the next person (probably more so on some subjects!) and I'd be happy to continue this until the cows come home (or the high court rules on the legislation) but I'm yet to see a convincing argument in favour of the laws (as opposed to in favour of the expected outcomes of the proposed laws, which I already essentially agree with). Any takers? This thread could make 100 pages if we sling shit at each other for long enough :p

[photomike666]

Roll on two decades and it's now accepted practice to issue infringement notices at 6kph over the national limit or cop a picture in the mail for same!!!

What really gives me the sh!ts is that vehicle manufacturers are allowed a 10% tolerance on speedo accuracy!!! and yet you can get an infringment notice for being 6% over the limit.

What shits me most is that fines are done per Km rather than per %. IF i happen to be 10kph over on a freeway, it isn't as dangerous as 10kph over through a 40kph school zone. Fines and demerits should be done on a percentage of the posted limit.

Back On Topic

What officially denotes an illegal bikie gang?

[Stereo]

What officially denotes an illegal bikie gang?

When its a gang.... it is illegal... and involves bikes...

[dutchy]

What officially denotes an illegal bikie gang?

When its a gang.... it is illegal... and involves bikes...

If we were to change name to "Kawasaki Sportsbike Riders Gang" would we be illegal?

[Stereo]

What officially denotes an illegal bikie gang?

When its a gang.... it is illegal... and involves bikes...

If we were to change name to "Kawasaki Sportsbike Riders Gang" would we be illegal?

No, "Illegal Kawasaki Gun Rider Drug Gang" would be.... Big Ups to all my boys in the IKGRDG WOOP!