Cath wrote:lotii10396 wrote:BTW whilst folks are happy to say that braking was the cause of the slide (so the point is understood), how about some suggestions on what else I could have tried to get the bike around the corner if I was already off the bike & leaning it as far as I dared? At this point I haven't had any other suggestions so trying the rear brake as a last resort still doesn't seem that ridiculous to me.
Honestly, (from the sounds of what you're describing) you could have steered it around the corner. Leaning as far as you dare, is often nowhere near leaning as far as you can (*especially* when you're a noob). I remember the first time I experienced this - I was riding down Elliots Way, in the Snowy Mountains. There was gravel on the road and I was going into a corner way too fast (my impression at the time anyway). In an instant, knew if I hit the guard rail, I would sail down, down, down and die, so I had to tip in and low side. In that split second, I *knew* I was going to low side, slam into the bike and guard rail and probably break several bones and it was going to hurt, but that was better than sailing off the side of a close-to-sheer drop. So I tipped it in hard and took a deep breath waiting for the impact. Before I even finished drawing the breath in, the bike had carved around the corner beautifully and I glimpsed a whole new world of riding that might be possible... And then I got the shakes (delayed reaction).
But the fact that I tipped it in hard, "knowing" that how far I was leaning would result in a low side, as it was "way too far" over, only to find the bike planted solidly and turning nicely, well, it made me realise that my perception of what was leaning too far was waaaaaaay different from what in reality is leaning too far over. And maybe that might be the same in your case?
So, I second (third, fourth, fifth?) the comments about more rider training. I highly recommend Twist of the Wrist 1 & 2 (if you can overlook the cheesiness), and also maybe Level 1 Superbike School. And even though you've copped a bit of curry in this thread, know that we're all glad you came out of it with so little damage! Live and learn
Totally agree, and in many ways your example is very similar. In my case the scenario was that I wasn't going to make it around the corner "in my lane" and I had seen an oncoming car. So I also took the lesser of two evils and decided that the bike was either turning in right then and there (ie before the car arrives) or I was sliding off into the dirt before the car arrives. I understand closing speed & knew I simply didn't want to be at a cornering limit any closer to the oncoming car. I agree now that at that "oh s**t" moment I should not have bothered with the brake and just tipped it in harder - at the end of the day the worst case is exactly the same result (low side) and it probably would have made it around. Experience/training, etc./etc.
But even though I crashed the bike I missed the car by a reasonable distance so I still actually consider myself lucky & fortunate. As you say: lived and learnt. I now think the bike slid down the road and must have actually struck the car (which is why it has a broken wheel), the strange part is that there is no other damage to the bike that would suggest such a forceful impact - nor did the driver make any mention of this when he stopped to see if I was OK or when he returned home about 20 min later. It was a 4WD so maybe it clipped the edge of the bull bar or something like that. Still odd.
BTW in answer to some other posts I wasn't lane riding - I actually do know about entry/apex/exit lines (1:27:07 around Mallala in my sub 3L road car) and ride as such. However the photos do not adequately describe the mid-corner road damage. I will try and get a video one day, but whilst waiting for the tow truck I watched as car's bounced & swayed as they hit the dip, it's not a nice corner. I think one poster suggested multiplying the posted speed x2 and then +20 km/h - so they are suggesting it is a 110km/h corner. Well thanks for that advise but I'll wait until I see them ride around the corner at that speed first.
In my case as soon as I saw the road damage I knew I had stuffed up the entry speed because I simply did not want to ride through it tipped right over - I guess it's the same feeling one has when they see gravel in the middle of a corner? I didn't have a cliff but I did have spare road (other lane) so I tried to avoid the dip by strightening the bike & widening the cornering line (but still caught enough of it to bump the bike), and then I saw the oncoming car & realised that there was now a big problem. I was already leaning off so tipped it over as far as I dared, but that was still not enough which is why I *believe* I made a deliberate decision to apply rear brake to try and turn the further. I didn't stomp on it or anything silly like that and it did actually pull the front end in (I can recall the front tyre turning inside the white dividing lines), but being a noob I didn't get off the brake at that point and the combination of forces was just too much for the tyre grip so away she went. And the slide was noticeably quicker than I recall from my dirt bike days, it basically just goes....splat. When I look at the photo there isn't much distance from the start of the slide to the point where the peg starts scraping, so I'm thinking I must have been tipped over a "reasonable" amount...but, like you say, once I had gotten to that point I should have just tipped it even more. From the photo it also looks the slide started at the crown of the road which would also make sense as to why I lost grip at exactly that point - I'll have to go back and have a look at the road cambers to confirm.
Should I have tried to hold my cornering line & ride through worst of the dip? Who knows, maybe - but the reality is I shouldn't have got myself into that stupid situation in the first place. I already knew that, and the reason for my original post was that I didn't understand the physics of the rear-end slide. The Bosch videos were most educational there and I've now got plenty of time to watch the Twist of the Wrist videos! As mentioned I'm not an automotive fan of electronic driving aids - I know how to cadence brake and truly believe it is better than ABS. But I also recognise that that is a purist/racing view - there is no question that ABS saves accidents & lives and it is simply to difficult to educate every driver to cadence brake - or every rider to ride properly. So for me (and I know it's not going to be for everyone) the option of a ABS system on a bike, especially on the rear wheel, seems like something worth investigating. I had seen some bikes offering ABS as standard but didn't realise you could retro fit.
As for the rear tyre/rim discussion - that's also a discussion separate to the crash. The GPz owners who have made this mod have not had crashes, they have done it simply because they thought it was a better idea. The geometry change (1" lower at the rear) with the zzr600 rim has already been noted, however from my investigations this could probably be corrected relatively easily. I've no problem with making *minor* changes that make things better, so I'm still thinking of going with that one for the GPz, especially I don't think many people would even realise it was a change.
Thanks to everyone for helping - its been great and I don't actually feel like such a tool anymore - even though I had clearly been one. And whilst I like to respond where possible, many posts are now obviously not reading my original question regarding the accident physics (answered) so I might have to leave the education/training/could have made it/should have made it posts alone from here on, but are still most interested to hear technical discussions on the pros or cons of rim/tyre change and ABS.
but another thing I would mention is that a skinny tire will turn in faster where a fat tire will be harder to turn, a skinny tire will also follow road cracks a lot easier then fat tire so there are many pros & cons, when the wheel size changes started way back when, 16 inch did not work but 17inch did & became popular...... have to ask the experts on that one as to why.
