Tuning carbies - Altitude vs. coast?

[Rusty]

Bogan,
The difference up to Kosciusko's going to be noticeable in most vehicles, but most properly tuned engines should still run ok. A car that's tuned rich at Canberra will struggle a bit on the mountain, but should still run. A car that's PROPERLY tuned at Canberra should run pretty reasonably. As far as the difference between Canberra and the coast, play with your idle speed a bit if you need to. You'll probably find the difference is like running on a cold day vs a hot day.

[FONC]

I would just say please show me in my two posts where I said everybody had to rejet??

Please show me where I said that you said that.

I fully understand why people rejet at the track I was not asking myself why!

Oh, good. Glad you cleared that up.

The original question was from someone (Bogan) who was going to run on a track day at PI or EC!
So I would personally be looking for power if I was racing!!!
Canberra's altitude is 550 mtrs above sea level and I agree would make little difference to most standard vehicles but that was not the original question!

Allow me to quote from the original post:

I don't want a super aggressive tune, it's a street bike

I took the original post as wondering whether he should rejet so he wouldn't burn a valve or piston. So, yes, that was the original question. It was a track day, not a race. He was simply looking after his bike.

Gos said atmospheric pressure changes at "higher levels" well that is bullshit it changes at any level from below sea level to well and truely above sea level!

You are aware that density and pressure are related? You don't change one without changing the other. In a given volume, if you increase the mass of air (increase density) you also get a corresponding increase of pressure. That's the concept behind forced induction (among other things, as I'm sure you're aware). So you see, pressure DOES decrease as you go up, because the density of the air is less. So Gos wasn't wrong, but probably neither were you when you said your 302 wasn't getting enough oxygen.

Rusty,

That is the oldest trick in the book. You have taken me totally out of context. Either read the hole lot or don't read it at all. I too can play that game but choose not to. If you are going to quote quote the whole thread not what you desire to get your answer. You have used 3-4 threads to make out I stated those things. Get a life mate. Who are you the thread police????
Your mate Gos did that before (not read total thread) and totally fucked up by not reading the whole article. It was in relation to valve timing on a 250 twin!
Where do you get off telling people they are wrong when they are not and then taking them totally out of context to try and score some points for talking absolute shit.
Where did I tell Bogan, Mate lets dial in those cams and while we do that we will put in some 12.5:1 JE pistons give the valves a quick 3-way cut bit of a port job. Maybe we should knife blade the crank journals as well. Then we will run Av-Gas (appologies Gos "power kerosene") no fuck it lets go methanol and we will bolt on some 50mm Lectrons!!!! That would be getting close to an aggressive tune!!! Nah Fuck it I'm going to ring Valentino Rossi and ask him to lend us his Yamaha for the weekends he is not using it!

[FONC]

I'd wager unless you're on the ragged edge it's not going to make a pinch of shit difference like Gos says.

Exactly. I'd argue that you were going to burn that exhaust valve anyway. If it was due to jetting, the jetting was too lean for Canberra, too.

Or you may have got a speck of foreign material in an emulsion tube or something silly like that.

See I quote your whole statement.

Mate you will not burn an exhaust valve or for that matter any valve by running lean.

You will however burn or melt a piston from excessive combustion temps!!!Eg Detonation or pinging. Extreme lean A/F ratio.

You will burn an exhaust/inlet valve by running tight valve clearances!!!! Hot combustion gases escaping past open valves (inlet or exhaust) act the same as a oxy - acetylene torch and burn the valves!

A speck of foreign material in emulsion tube give me a break. A piston is alloy (aluminium) valves are at minimum high carbon steel alloys, stainless steel, Stellite and even titanium all of which will not burn before aluminium.

What school of engineering was it you attended????

[Rusty]

?? Where did I take you out of context? D'you mean I cut your post into manageable chunks and replied to each bit? That's called formatting. Makes things easier to read. The content of my reply would've been the same, just a little harder to follow. I did use your whole post, by the way.

I agree that it's more likely that a piston will fail before a valve, but I don't agree that it's impossible for a lean mixture to contribute to valve failure. I also agree that tight clearances will kill valves in exactly the manner you describe.

As to the "emulsion tube" comment, I was actually referring to the mixture at that point, not the valve. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Yes, it'd have to be a pretty big "speck".

[Six Addict]

[Bogan]

Nah Fuck it I'm going to ring Valentino Rossi and ask him to lend us his Yamaha for the weekends he is not using it!

Enjoy that. I'll stick to my Kawasaki .

[FONC]

?? Where did I take you out of context? D'you mean I cut your post into manageable chunks and replied to each bit? That's called formatting. Makes things easier to read. The content of my reply would've been the same, just a little harder to follow. I did use your whole post, by the way.

I agree that it's more likely that a piston will fail before a valve, but I don't agree that it's impossible for a lean mixture to contribute to valve failure. I also agree that tight clearances will kill valves in exactly the manner you describe.

As to the "emulsion tube" comment, I was actually referring to the mixture at that point, not the valve. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Yes, it'd have to be a pretty big "speck".

Hello Rusty,
When you "cut" me into manageable chunks you did not format you took me out of context!

Mate just google it! Aluminum will always melt before steel! No matter what. That is physics! So if you think a lean mixture will cause valve failure you are wrong!!!

Oh and now you are going to change mid stream! Please Rusty leave me alone mate I did not start this! But I will play the game!

[FONC]

Nah Fuck it I'm going to ring Valentino Rossi and ask him to lend us his Yamaha for the weekends he is not using it!

Enjoy that. I'll stick to my Kawasaki .

Sorry Bogan,

We seem to have got a little bit off track since the start. I really don't have the champs phone number anyway so mate just enjoy the ride you have got. Nothing wrong with the green machine on the street anyway.
Maybe we will do better on the track next season!!!

[Gosling1]

Geez I love it when people forget what they have posted, and then go on to post more gold......

....Please Rusty leave me alone mate I did not start this! .....

well actually no, you did start it with this gem.....

....G'day Bogan, Don't like raining on anyones party but altitude does make a difference....blah blah blah...

and then there was this ripper sequence......nothing quoted out of context either, just straight-up quotes....

...Go back and have another read no one stated that you should change your jetting ......

So no-one suggested that jetting should be changed . ? Hang on a minute, what about this pearl of wisdom ??.....

....You have 3 choices Set it for Canberra, set it for Bega or go half way between....

and then you even asked this question of Rusty !!

.....I would just say please show me in my two posts where I said everybody had to rejet?? ....

well I hope that clears it up for you.

You were seriously suggesting jetting changes based on altitude, for a ride-day bike. Not a competion bike. This is not about chasing 10ths at a racetrack. It was a question from a punter looking for simple advice, not bullshit about the lack of oxygen at Charlottes Pass - BTW what is the name of the road that runs over the top of Kosciosko ??

Canberra is 575m above sea level.
Cooma is 619m above sea level.
Jinda is 918m above sea level.
Charlottes Pass is 1760m above sea level

and last but by *no* means least, good old Mt Kosi is 2228m above sea level.

Of course, the fact that no-one can actually *DRIVE* at 2228m above sea level is clearly lost on old mate up north. But never let the facts get in the way of a good argument eh ? (Charlotte Pass may only be a few km's away from Kosi ' as the crow flies', but it is almost 500m below Mt Kosi in altitude...)

I simply called bullshit on your suggestion that jetting changes are required for a Canberra-based road bike to be used on the coast. Thats because it is bullshit, pure and simple. You can argue the toss all you like, no-one rejets their bike to ride down the coast and back, or up to Khancoban or onwards to Tintaldra (which is only 250m above sea level).....they never have and they never will. Get over it.

No-one suggested that atmospheric pressure didn't change at sea-level ? And the references to the US were about *real* altitude changes, where rarefied air can and does make an appreciable difference. I was a tad conservative about the height above sea level for roads in the Rockies, they range up to 10,000 feet above sea level, makes Kosi look like a zit on a camels arse really.......

anyway, how about some more gold.....

.....I fully understand why people rejet at the track I was not asking myself why!....

Glad to know you understand why people rejet. Join the club, a hell of a lot of us understand exactly the same thing.

....The original question was from someone (Bogan) who was going to run on a track day at PI or EC!....

Yes, a ride-day, on a stock road-bike. Which makes this next statement somewhat irrelavent and incorrect (and I have now lost all respect, so have removed the capitalization of your name ).....

....So I would personally be looking for power if I was racing!!!....

Who is racing ? Not Bogan, he is just doing a ride-day. He isn't chasing 10ths. Read the original question in its correct context before showering us all with your bottomless pit of knowledge - OK ?

....Canberra's altitude is 550 mtrs above sea level and I agree would make little difference to most standard vehicles but that was not the original question!.....

aaaahhhh HAAA !! a retraction....of sorts. And yes, it *was* the original question, it had nothing to do with *racing*. That was an angle that you have added to the discussion.

Now, how about some 'out-of-context' quoting......a bit like this.

....Gos said atmospheric pressure changes at "higher levels" well that is bullshit it changes at any level from below sea level to well and truely above sea level!....

The context where I posted that comment related to the changes needed to jetting where the large changes in atmospheric pressure actually warranted jetting changes. Which of course mainly only occurs at much higher altitudes (where the air is thin). But never let the opportunity to quote someone out of context slip past. Its always good to try this angle, and I also note that you have complained vociferously about being subjected to the same thing !!! I cannot imagine that you would have a double-standard for either whinging about being quoted out of context, or quoting someone else out of context.....would you ?

For the record, I have looked for any refererence in my posts where I have suggested that atmospheric pressure changes ONLY occur at high altitudes. It dissapoints me greatly to have failed to find one.....

I will leave the best till last........this one *really* cracked me up !!

....Where do you get off telling people they are wrong when they are not....

Of course - it all makes perfect sense to me now !! You are one of those guys who is *never* wrong about *anything*, everyone else is a total fuckwit who doesn't know their arse from their elbow, and your immense encyclopeadic knowledge of all things mechanical is the *ONLY* reference source that we should listen to....

thanks for the entertainment though, its been a lot of fun finding out how little I actually know about jetting !!

Do you recommend jetting changes for the weekend warriors heading up Mt Nebo / Mt Glorious ?? Its a hell of a pressure drop, and not much oxygen up that way either (too many thieves) !



Unfortunately, I can't let this next quote go by without saying something - because it actually pisses me off quite a bit. This gem relates to another forum, where a member had issues with his little 2fiddy kwakka. Strika pm'd me about it, because *not one* of the experts over there could help out old mate (who is a local here at Anarchy Road). Here is the quote....

....Your mate Gos did that before (not read total thread) and totally fucked up by not reading the whole article. It was in relation to valve timing on a 250 twin!....

In the interests of a balanced viewpoint, here is what *actually* happened.......I told Brucey *exactly* what I thought the problem with his bike was, he bought it over to my workshop, where it was fixed and returned to him. As usual, some know-all know-nothing arseclowns had suggested all manner of bullshit fixes on this other forum. As usual, it was the simple things which had gone wrong. So it was simple to fix and return to the owner....running properly again.

I don't know how old mate up north thinks I *totally fucked up by not reading the whole article* ( I read every single fucking post on that thread about Brucey's 250 (all 19 pages worth) before posting anything about helping him. I have no time for ill-informed opinions )- but its not the first time some self-proclaimed legend from Qld on that other forum, has presented himself as the only person who knows a ring-spanner from a plug spanner .....fuck me they get upset when you disagree with them . The main 'tard on the other forum got heaps of grief from a lot of members about blowing his own trumpet, so he just STFU which was appreciated by all and sundry.

Fonc - you need to check your facts before spinning crap on here about what happens on other forums. That sort of stuff really pisses me off. Especially when so-called fucking *expert mechanics* cannot diagnose a simple problem like the one Brucey had.....after 19 pages FFS !!! It was a joke.

So the question I have for you, fonc, is - exactly *HOW* did I totally fuck up ? If you are going to spin shit like that, you better have evidence to back it up - or just STFU and stop spinning bullshit !!!!

[FONC]

Yeah well thanks for that Goose! You still running AvTur in your race bikes?

As for oxygen thieves in QLD!!! Mate have a good look around where you live. It is the capital of oxygen thieves!!!

Yes there is a road to the top of Mt Kosciusko (which I noticed you could not spell) go and have a look!

Yes all you ever do is take things out of context in fact you are a champion at it. Oh except when you are dribbling about your own conquests! (rhubarb)

Yes you did try to bump start a bike with incorrect valve timing after reading all the facts! Several times!!!!

Mate you are obviously a legend somewhere I'm just not sure where but where ever and good for you! Possibly Canberra???

Have you ever thought of writing a book??? "How to dismantle someone else's post and reconstruct it my way" would be a good title. You have just possibly written the first half of the book in your last post.

I may not know my arse from my elbow as I am not a doctor nor do I claim to be. But I do know what a total fuckwit is Goose. After reading that last post, my votes would be all for you mate!

The reason I STFU as you put it, is I do not live to write on forums as you do. I read them then have the occasional comment and then sit back and watch. I then occasionally come back and respond to people like you that think you are the only persons who are right. Well mate everybody is entitled to an opinion. Without some moron like yourself taking the absolute piss out of them for no real benefit or reason. You could have PM'd me if you have a personal problem with me or something I wrote but I don't even know you but your writing mannerism is pretty extreme and offensive. Which has prompted me to respond in the manner I have (extreme and defensive). I should not really respond but an underlying twisted streak in me makes me do it. Just to see your response. Which I look forward to.
Oh and I am not bagging you for enjoying posting because sometimes your posts are enjoyable but it pisses me off when you just dribble shit over absolute nothings.
One more thing could you please check my grammar and make sure I crossed all my "t" 's and dotted all my "i" 's. The dot over the "i" is called a title!

Best Regards,
FONC

[6maniac]

One more thing could you please check my grammar

Best Regards,
FONC

Well since you asked...... please define / interpret " Cie la Vie " ??

[Gosling1]

Heh foncwit - you just keep on re-jetting your bikes when riding from the coast up to Mt Glorious OK ?? 45 days to come up with those pearls of wisdom ?? yeh I know things move pretty slowly up your way, especially that train of thought eh ??

[shinnynoggon]

+1 +1

[FONC]

6maniac, Cie la Vie = Such is Life. Ned said this just before they hung him.

Goosewit1, First time since last year sometime yes. As I said I don't live to post as you obviously do!
Do you ever get time to actually ride your aviation kero powered machines???
By the way QLD is the home of a five time world champ as far as motorcycling goes.
So we are not as slow as your bikes running aviation kero you poor simple oxygen thief. Now that must of taken some jetting!!!
No wonder your "blue oyster" needs a new starter motor, starting a petrol engine on kero would take some winding!!! But then again nothing is fast in Canberra!
I would go as far as to say, I would bet you could not ride out of sight on a dark, wet night with your lights on!!! ( no one home of course).
That is why you ride classics I would imagine.
C or D grader???

shinnynoggon, I am not sure what you mean +1 +1 ???

[6maniac]

6maniac, Cie la Vie = Such is Life. Ned said this just before they hung him.

Not quite..... Yes, Ned is quoted as saying " Such is life " , but that does not translate to " Cie la Vie ".

The French quote " C'est la vie " translates as " That's life " ...... or " it's the life ".