Duty of Care (long post)

[bigtez]

A couple of weeks ago i attended a ride organised by a motorcycle retailer. After arriving at the dealership where the ride was organised to start there was the usual meet and greet and then we set off.
I was riding about 4th in the pack of about 15. 2nd from the front as we headed for boonah was a young lady on a zx2r. After watching her ride for a bit i noticed she was not very confident in the corners. She had a habit of tipping the bike in and leaning herself towards the highside of the bike (the wrong way).
After a stop at the cafe in boonah i think it was we filled up at a nearby servo and then headed for rathdowney. While parked at the servo i noticed the young lady had no gloves or a proper jacket so i offered her my summer gloves and i wore my good gloves.
We then left the servo and the hooligans managed to bustle there way to the front of the pack past her and me a started to get a lead on us. At this stage i was the bike behind her and we were about the middle of the pack. On the first corner that i got excited about i saw she was going into it to quick and consequently ran wide, hit the gravel and lowsided. She and the bike then tumbled around 20m before coming to a halt.
She had some gravel rash to her shoulder and knee. Her hands were fine (she didn't even brake a nail) but my gloves were ruined. Her bike however was a complete write off. It had a broken front rim, destroyed forks, cracked frame at the headstock, dinged swingarm, various levers missing and not one piece of fairing was not broken.
I will be doing my best to get some sort of compensation for my gloves as i believe i should.

Now my point. Is it unreasonable to expect that a dealership would forbid someone to ride with them when they know that:
1. they don't have enough protective clothing
2. they have bugger all experience (she was 18yo, never had a car licence and only been riding a couple of months)

Personally i think they should have provided her with a loaner jacket and gloves before we left the dealership. But instead they were to busy trying to get inside her pants.

Your opinions Please

Terry

[Steve_TLS]

I'm a follower of you are responsible for your own actions. They might have failed a bit with education but can't see that they're responsible for any part of her crash, injuries and bike damage.

Is KSRC responsible if I go on an organised ride with them, ill prepared and hurt myself? I don't think so. I'm responsible.

[RG]

erm...is she cute?

[Neilp]

I'm a follower of you are responsible for your own actions. They might have failed a bit with education but can't see that they're responsible for any part of her crash, injuries and bike damage.

Is KSRC responsible if I go on an organised ride with them, ill prepared and hurt myself? I don't think so. I'm responsible.

I am a firm believer of people being responsible for their own actions as well, the young lady in question should have been very aware of what was happening (riding too fast for her experience and ability), and slowed down accordingly.
The people organising these rides are not responsible for what riders do or do not wear, all that can be done is to suggest that people do the right thing.
Did she have insurance? Sounds like she wasnt too badly hurt, thankfully!

Neil

[RG]

I think it'll be easier for them to make it a requirement for ppl to ride with proper gears as compared to us(KSRC)
Simple things such as a note or email 'We advise that you wear a proper riding jacket, riding gloves, long pants and covered shoes for our rides' will make alot of difference.

I've yet to see any dickhead with kevlar shorts & tongs riding with us, but I believe ppl will tend to oblige to them(dealers) than us(KSRC).

[Tones]

Sounds like it is a mine field of maybe's. Legally she was licenced to ride, and wearing the legal requirement of gear (helmet). That covers her from an insurance stand point. I cannot speak for QLD, but in Victoria that is the case. Duty of care is hard to establish if the accident happened on a public road, and they were not directly in control of this girls bike. On the same token they should have had a pre-ride briefing (with the rules and regs etc) as well as a reasonable look at the bikes to make sure they were road worthy. If the above had been done I would think they had taken reasonable steps, given there are many variables that they cannot control. Of course it is probably something that solicitors and barristers would love. Isnt it ironic, how many people in the legal profession will use the terms "there are no guarantees" or "it could go either way" to cover themselves for duty of care of themselves.

Cheers

[RG]

... the young lady in question should have been very aware of what was happening (riding too fast for her experience and ability), and slowed down accordingly.

Peer pressure.
I've been on a short ride with one of the local forum(shall not mention name) but there are a lot of young(and new) riders in this said forum, and when the 1st (usually an experience)rider takes the corner hard n fast, the rest will tend(want) to follow. Which obviously is dangerous.
Let's just say I'm not very keen on riding with them after that short run.

Common sense u may think, but sometimes at that spur of moment ppl lose them.

[RG]

This is wat I mean...

http://www.ksrc-au.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=505

Motorcycling is dangerous and you ride at your own risk and to your own skill level. Always wear appropriate safety gear and obey road rules. No liability is accepted by the KSRC administrators, owner, web host or any other related party in any way from use of information or participation on any ride related to this site. You only enter the site and become a member on acceptance of those and any other conditions.

KSRC - Management

[Neilp]

... the young lady in question should have been very aware of what was happening (riding too fast for her experience and ability), and slowed down accordingly.

Peer pressure.
I've been on a short ride with one of the local forum(shall not mention name) but there are a lot of young(and new) riders in this said forum, and when the 1st (usually an expereience)rider takes the corner hard n fast, the rest will tend(want) to follow. Which obviously is dangerous.
Let's just say I'm not very keen on riding with them after that short run.

Common sense u may think, but sometimes at that spur of moment ppl lose them.

True RG and some dont have any to start with.
But I think it sad that a new rider has become a statistic so soon after becoming a rider, I dont believe the new licensing laws are working in Qld, I believe it is to easy to get a bike license.
Getting a license should involve more rider training, not just the 1 or 2 days it takes to do a Qride course.
Just my 2c worth.

Neil

[RG]

... I dont believe the new licensing laws are working in Qld, I believe it is to easy to get a bike license.
Getting a license should involve more rider training, not just the 1 or 2 days it takes to do a Qride course...

Way too easy mate...

Wait till u see the licensing laws in Singapore.
Minimum of 8 lessons, 100 mins each. 5 lessons in circuit, 3 lessons on road. And a final assesment by the traffic police, yes the cops!

I said minimum 8, but an average person will need at least 16 lessons.
And one cannot do more than 1 lesson per day, that means u will need minimum of 8 days(if u are farking good) to earn that license.

That initial license(class 2B) will allow u to ride a bike up to 200cc.
After 12 mths, go for another (minimum)3 lessons + 1 assesment by the cops, and earn the next level of license(class 2A), which allows u to ride a bike up to 400cc.
And after 12mths, go for another (minimum)3 lessons + 1 assesment by the cops, and earn the highest level of license(class 2), which allows u to ride any bike.

If u look at the whole time frame, to get from 'no-riding-license' to 'ride-anybike', one will need at least 2 yrs, and 3 assesments by the cops in between.

[Barrabob]

I will go with the "you ride at your own risk and are responsible for your own actions"....they should have spotted the obvious and looked after her a bit too though.

Hey if ya want to ride in thongs thats fine with me, i hang around the back of the pack and yeh they wait for me at the next turn thats the way it is.


I would imagine she would have been dragged back and forth in front of the accesories dept as well a few times but by law she had all the saftey gear she required and at that age money can be a bit of a issue but someone would have realised it was a accident waiting to happen.

What sort of a bike was it?

Hey 18 cute and too fast for her own good its a shame we couldnt get her to a track day.

And midclowns would have if they got half a chance.

Last edited by Barrabob on Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Felix]

I'll join in this one...

Firstly, QRide took way more than 2 lessons for me...I had heaps more, and I gladly paid for it. I could get my opens because I had a car licence for however many years before hand (which is part of the requirement for applying for opens), and I decided I wanted it. It isn't quite open slather, though I think the model needs some tweaking - mainly in the enforcement of standards.

Secondly, I don't think the "You are responsible for your own actions" would work in this case. It could be argued that as a professional industry group they should be fostering the adoption of best practice when it comes to the operation of a motorcycle.

This would especially be so as a few bike shops encourage shop ride days as a way to offer a non threatening environment for people to come and enjoy motorcycling which ultimately serves their own commercial interests.

It would also be reasonable for the bike shop to provide loaner gear as this would provide potential customers an opportunity to "try before they buy" and also because it serves their commercial interests to keep their clients safe.

Now this would not extend to damage done to her bike, only to herself in the way of personal injury. Her bike should be or under normal circumstances would be covered by her own insurance.

My opinion is that the shop in question is playing with fire by not insisting on a minimum standard of safety equipement, and they would leave themselves liable for a claim under Workplace Health and Safety legislation should an injury occur on such a ride.

[wazza1234]

I dont believe the new licensing laws are working in Qld, I believe it is to easy to get a bike license.
Neil

Agreed, it is too easy, and thats coming form a person who did the qride course 4 days ago. I had 4 2hr lessons over the course of less than 2 weeks and passed qride, which didnt even (seemingly) test all the things even the qride manual said I should be competent in (and I had not ridden a manual bike before hand, only a 50cc scooter...now I can ride anything ). I am glad that my riding instructor went through everything I should have been tested on and was happy (i think) with how I was progressing. If we in QLD had a mix of a stricter qride and the NSW laws which allow you to ride alone on your L's it would be a pretty good system, right now I feel it has something to be desired.

[Pugs313]

Yes i agree with safty gear and to prove it , I went for a club ride yesterday down the coast and although very hot on the way home i put my summer jacket and gloves on . as you guessed i was riding too fast on unknowen roads and failed to make a sharp corner and crashed the ninja , 'first crash in 15 years" I have only a small scratch on my elbow and very happy that i had my safty gear on .

Jeff

P S The wife still will not lend me her bike

[ttc]

Sorry Bigtez, but you're asking the impossible. The shops can't ask ppl to wear gear any more than we can when someone comes on a ride. And last time i heard ppl had to sign a disclaimer to go on the rides in the first place. Work organised a ride and there were ppl there from another shop and some behaviour was silly enough for me to pull out of the ride after 30km. It was the first and last shop ride for me, I'll stick to riding with people i know and trust not to do silly things

As for lending her a jacket who pays for it if a. they don't come back or b. crash like she did? Yes they could ask for a deposit etc but would you go riding if you knew you had to pay money?

And as for inexperienced... everyone starts somewhere.. In victoria they get their learners and are legally allowed to wobble around unescorted, personally i think that's more dangerous. I don't completely agree that an open licence after two days of riding like i did is good, (eg. guy came in the other day, Q ride in morning, R1 in the afternoon) but if the person has common sense i think it's a good thing