Article from todays paper

[stevew_zzr]

Hell I managed to stack my ZZR250 within a coupla weeks of getting it - no injuries I wasn't riding that fast just got caught out by road conditions! (p.s. yeah I know I'm crap - I'm working on it!)

I'm in agreeance with anyone who says that this guy was probably going to off him self in some way or another eventually - regardless of whether the dealer sold him the bike or not. Call me a bastard but I think this woman should keep it to herself unless she's prepared to do a proper study on how to reduce fatalities for motorcycle riders and come back with some cold hard evidence that restricting the sale would cause less deaths.

Sure more powerful bikes are more capable, but bikes only do what you tell them to do!

Having said all of that, it's sad to hear about another unnecessary loss, condolences to those who knew him.

[nahima]

I have to say that I agree with all the above - this guy knew exactly what he was doing and the dangers involved but at 20 we genereally think ourselves invincible - regardless of bike/car/other transport.

My NSR150 (legal in Vic) has a top speed of 240 - I can't vouch for that, i never took it anywhere close to that. If I did, I only had myself to blame as I know my skills are certainly up to par.

I attempted to buy another 250 - can't remember the make or model but the dealer refused to sell it to me even though it was legal because he felt I did not have sufficient skills/experience to handle the bike - his daughters race bikes and aren't allowed on this particular bike. Ultimately, I could have purchased the bike in a myriad of ways but I heeded his words - its not a safe bike for me. That was a conscious decision on my part.

When I purchased my ZX6R, I was off my P's but I also knew that I would need to learn to handle the bike and treat it with respect if I didn't want to meet with some pretty dire circumstances.

Fact - he's not a kid, he knew what he was doing was wrong, he knew speeding is wrong and someone who rides above their skills/limits oftem meets with unpleasant results.

I feel for her loss but blaming society for what your kids do does not stop them taking themselves out of the gene pool - they'll find another way to do it. Start by teaching your kids that they are wholly and solely responsible for their actions - this is often the only wake up call they need.

Oh and yes I speak from experience, I have 19 year old daughter who at 16 was out getting drunk with friends even though it is illegal - I never blamed those who procured the alcohol for her but I had some pretty strong words to her about responsibility. irresponsible children generally grow up to be irresponsible adults - I'm sure we've all worked with them in our lifetime "it's not my fault"...yeah right

[Tack]

I reckon the only difference between owning a high powered bike and a high powered car is that with a bike a "mistake" can more easily be fatal. It's still the nut behind the wheel that controls his fate.

I been wondering though if there might be a case for "proving" your riding skills before purchasing a high powered bike.

just for example....what if.......... you had to take go to a track and under test conditions be able to meet a test criteria...to prove you have the ability to handle that bike. If you fail, you would could do training to 'learn' to ride that bike.

I'm guessing that a fair few people, if not all, would probably think that its a crap idea but if the test was tough enough only the people with skill would be able to ride certain bikes, which means it would be an "honour" to be able to own and ride those bikes. I would guess that people would "want" to improve their skill to be able to ride such bikes.

That doesn't mean that it stops the idiot factor or that these same 'skilled' riders won't get killed also but at least the bike community could turn round and say "The biker may have been killed but at least we did everything possible to improve our skills unlike car drivers"

[bigtez]

I reckon the only difference between owning a high powered bike and a high powered car is that with a bike a "mistake" can more easily be fatal. It's still the nut behind the wheel that controls his fate.

not only that a mistake in a car is more likely to take the lives of innocent bystanders. i am assuming that noone else was hurt in his accident. if he had gone to his local import car yard and bought a high powered turbo wank mobile and killed others aswell as himself would the media then be taking her side.

[Pabs]

I agree with all the above I've read,Iam sorry for the young guy and his family,unfortunately there is to many different state laws,the government should try to uniform these laws on motor car licence amd motorbike licence.
He could have done this on a 250/500 or commodore,It was all his responsebility.

On another note my 16year daughter attended the Rotary Driver Road Awareness Class which is part of her school classes,Well she was very dissapointed because all they had there was a well known local car dealer basically telling them how to obtain finance to buy a car.

Now each time I take my middle son for a drive (he is on L's)try to gain more than 50hours road expirience ,she comes along with us.
She has learnt more from this than any class so far.

[mike-s]

On another note my 16year daughter attended the Rotary Driver Road Awareness Class which is part of her school classes,Well she was very dissapointed because all they had there was a well known local car dealer basically telling them how to obtain finance to buy a car.

not surprised, yet somehow still it's bloody sad to see *sigh*, a frigging joke.

Now each time I take my middle son for a drive (he is on L's)try to gain more than 50hours road expirience ,she comes along with us.
She has learnt more from this than any class so far.

Good lad, when i first learned to drive i started with watching mum when she was normally driving and getting a feel for gearchanges up down, and observation. then i got behind the wheel and went from there. good luck and i hope she is a safe driver when she gets to it, sounds like she's got a good mentor however

[Rossi]

Now as a rider who passed the test overseas I want to say that from what I have seen here

You are not taught to drive here, you are taught to pass a test. Some of the idiots I have seen would not be able to pass a blood test !

As for the kid ..........tuff but shit happens, you cannot legislate for an idiot.

[nahima]

I been wondering though if there might be a case for "proving" your riding skills before purchasing a high powered bike.

Not sure if this still applies but when my older brother got his motorbike license in France, there were 4 classes of licence - each for different capacity ranges, each with a skills test. If you were caught on a bike that you were not licensed for, the bike was impounded and you lost your license for x time.

This guarantess your mates don't lend you a bike (they don't want their ride impounded). You could purchase any bike you wanted but if you happened to kill yourself on a bike that you were not licensed for, you were automatically deemed to be at fault regardless of anyone else's actions.

I believe Japan have some graded licensing laws too and their test is very different - one of the test components is being able to pick up your bike off the ground.

I agree with the comment made that we are not taught to ride but rather to pass a test - knowing that however, I have take myself to several courses to increase my skills - again it comes down to responsibility for yourself - I wouldn't trust the government to look after me no matter what laws they pass.

[Tack]

On another note my 16year daughter attended the Rotary Driver Road Awareness Class

Why do they have a class to make these kids aware of drivers who have Rotary powered vehicles???

Surely they should be made aware of others types of vehicles then just rotary powered Mazdas.

What about a Volvo driver awareness class....and a four wheel drive driver awareness class...and people with hats awareness class???

[gray_rm]

just for example....what if.......... you had to take go to a track and under test conditions be able to meet a test criteria...to prove you have the ability to handle that bike. If you fail, you would could do training to 'learn' to ride that bike.

Are we saying that that 20yr old lost his life because he was unable to handle the bike, or were there other factors/conditions that caused the accident? Are the accidents of our own KRSC members because they couldn't handle the size of bike? Or are there other factors? This may be more pertinent than bike size?

Am I right in thinking if you're on a ZZR250 doing 50km/hr and a car swerves into you, you'd be reacting the same way as if you were on a ZZR1200 (doing 50)?

If we all rode at the speed limit - and this is an open question - isn't the riding *ability* the same [aside from acceleration and braking power] he asks, quizzically?

[nahima]

I don't think anyone is saying that the bike size was at fault but rather the argument is that - no other extenuating circumstances prevailing - the rider was responsible for himself - i.e the size of bike he chose, the speed he chose to ride at - 120kmh in a 60kmh and perhaps as a P plater, did not have the skills to handle the bike.

The mother's argument is that the dealer bears the responsibility for selling a bike this young guy was not legally allowed to ride.

from what I've read in the posts, most people are balking at this and saying that the rider made a choice with regards to bike - legal or not - and may not have had the skills to deal with it - specificaly at 120kmh.

As with any discussion, groups often move into generalisations as they express opinions - none of which detracts from the fact that a young guy killed himself on a bike - most of us who have an off reflect on what we could have done differently to avoid the off but accidents will happen no matter how careful we are due to factors such as other vehicles on the road or road conditions.

[Glen]

Having the physical skills is one thing and for sure will give you a better chance of getting out of the shit. What stops you from becoming a grease spot though are the mental skills that keep you out of shit in the first place.

In this case I'm tipping the young bloke would have got knocked no matter what he was riding.

Having said the above I think capacity restrictions are a good thing and unfortunately our licensing system , particularly in the last couple of years in NSW, is becoming a means to get a license rather than learn. For that you can thank the RTA and the major training provider in NSW, who by their behaviour have turned it into a business rather than a scheme to increase skills and prevent accidents.

[Blue14]

The old story here, blame someone else. He bought it, he chose to be stupid, he killed himself, his fault. When are some people going to face up to reality. Just as was commented, he could have done the same thing on a 250. The bike only goes as quick as the hand turns.. !!

[stevew_zzr]

I think one issue here that seems to be at least an undercurrent in everyone's posts is that rider education is pretty limited to what you *choose* to take on yourself (ie practiae days at local tracks, or advanced rider training that is generally not at all subsidised by state or federal governments) and that in any case, before we try to impose restrictions, we should attempt (or legislate) to educate people how to ride before they get their license to ride certain types of bikes.

[nahima]

I think greater access to rider education programs and more training before you get your license would be a good thing if the costs can be kept down. I know a lot of people can't afford the cost of advanced training although in my opinion I can't afford not to do advanced training.

Is it worth posting something on MRAA with regards to this?