noob rider crash...

Discuss riding techniques, styles and tips here.

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby fireyrob » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:39 pm

lotii10396 wrote:At this point I haven't had any other suggestions so trying the rear brake as a last resort still doesn't seem that ridiculous to me.


Google TWIST OF THE WRIST and TWIST OF THE WRIST 2!!!

Rider Training!!!

The pic you showed up of the corner clearly shows a riding line within the lane. A smooth throttle and no braking would have got you through no dramas. If you had some proper rider training (throttle control, turning points, choice of line, vision, body position, counter steering) you would of simply carried on after a brief moment.

The BS about safety devices etc is as good as the next oil patch, animal on the road, car uturning, cow manure. Learn to ride or get back in the cage.
09 ZX6R
03 Zthou
User avatar
fireyrob
KSRC Addict
KSRC Addict
 
Posts: 4988
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:13 am
Location: Ashfield
Bike: Z1000
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Cath » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:36 pm

lotii10396 wrote:BTW whilst folks are happy to say that braking was the cause of the slide (so the point is understood), how about some suggestions on what else I could have tried to get the bike around the corner if I was already off the bike & leaning it as far as I dared? At this point I haven't had any other suggestions so trying the rear brake as a last resort still doesn't seem that ridiculous to me.


Honestly, (from the sounds of what you're describing) you could have steered it around the corner. Leaning as far as you dare, is often nowhere near leaning as far as you can (*especially* when you're a noob). I remember the first time I experienced this - I was riding down Elliots Way, in the Snowy Mountains. There was gravel on the road and I was going into a corner way too fast (my impression at the time anyway). In an instant, knew if I hit the guard rail, I would sail down, down, down and die, so I had to tip in and low side. In that split second, I *knew* I was going to low side, slam into the bike and guard rail and probably break several bones and it was going to hurt, but that was better than sailing off the side of a close-to-sheer drop. So I tipped it in hard and took a deep breath waiting for the impact. Before I even finished drawing the breath in, the bike had carved around the corner beautifully and I glimpsed a whole new world of riding that might be possible... And then I got the shakes (delayed reaction).
But the fact that I tipped it in hard, "knowing" that how far I was leaning would result in a low side, as it was "way too far" over, only to find the bike planted solidly and turning nicely, well, it made me realise that my perception of what was leaning too far was waaaaaaay different from what in reality is leaning too far over. And maybe that might be the same in your case?

So, I second (third, fourth, fifth?) the comments about more rider training. I highly recommend Twist of the Wrist 1 & 2 (if you can overlook the cheesiness), and also maybe Level 1 Superbike School. And even though you've copped a bit of curry in this thread, know that we're all glad you came out of it with so little damage! Live and learn :)
Road: 2005 ZX10R - not named yet
Road: 2008 Z750 - Kwak
Track: 2006 ZX6R - Yoshi (with a very Genki undertail)
User avatar
Cath
KSRC Addict
KSRC Addict
 
Posts: 3480
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:08 pm
Location: Yarramalongwayaway
Bike: ZX10R
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Nelso » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:58 pm

You would be amazed at how much rear brake you can apply in a corner, but using your brakes mid corner is a skill, like any other and needs to be learnt and practised. If you were right over on the edge of the tyre and you hit a heap of bumps or the suspension unloaded while you were a bit heavy footed with the rear brake, then it's possible the rear could slide.

It sounds like you were riding outside your ability, but I think you realise that now. Also, the road isn't the place to push and learn the limits, which is why we are all saying to get to a track and do some riding courses.

As for the rear wheel, if it's cactus, then you might as well do the 17" conversion for the better options and price for tyres, but as others have said, having an 18" wheel wasn't the problem.

What would experienced riders do? They most likely would have tipped in tighter and took the corner at the faster pace; but, if they needed to wash off speed, would have trail-braked as well as tipping in (but as I indicated, this is an advanced skill and not one that will be mastered straight away).

You have to remember that you have just learnt to dog-paddle, but you are trying to swim a 400m medley. Learn some basic skills before you try to take on the advanced stuff or you will just overcomplicate things. We have all been where you are and know what it's like to be starting out, so trust us when we tell you the quickest and safest way to get good is to do some training and get on the track to practice.

EDIT: I just looked at the picture and it looks like you have taken a shit line into the corner, panicked and jumped on the rear brake too hard. I doubt I would have hit the resurfaced bit taking that corner and could easily go around it well over 100k's.
Green '08 ZRX1200 Road bike
Green 2012 ZX10 Track/race bike
Green '89 H1 ZXR750 race bike
'89 RMX250 motard race bike
2015 YZ450
2017 KTM EXC300
User avatar
Nelso
Team Grinder
 
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:22 pm
Location: Wollongong
Bike: ZRX
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Nelso » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:16 pm

robracer wrote:Counter steer to get the bike through the corner or at least start the turn ...... contact patch will also depend on inflation pressure :lol: but another thing I would mention is that a skinny tire will turn in faster where a fat tire will be harder to turn, a skinny tire will also follow road cracks a lot easier then fat tire so there are many pros & cons, when the wheel size changes started way back when, 16 inch did not work but 17inch did & became popular...... have to ask the experts on that one as to why.


Also, changing from an 18 inch to 17 inch wheel will change your geometry, so you will have to add ride height to the rear to compensate for it. ;)
Green '08 ZRX1200 Road bike
Green 2012 ZX10 Track/race bike
Green '89 H1 ZXR750 race bike
'89 RMX250 motard race bike
2015 YZ450
2017 KTM EXC300
User avatar
Nelso
Team Grinder
 
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:22 pm
Location: Wollongong
Bike: ZRX
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby lotii10396 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:21 pm

Cath wrote:
lotii10396 wrote:BTW whilst folks are happy to say that braking was the cause of the slide (so the point is understood), how about some suggestions on what else I could have tried to get the bike around the corner if I was already off the bike & leaning it as far as I dared? At this point I haven't had any other suggestions so trying the rear brake as a last resort still doesn't seem that ridiculous to me.


Honestly, (from the sounds of what you're describing) you could have steered it around the corner. Leaning as far as you dare, is often nowhere near leaning as far as you can (*especially* when you're a noob). I remember the first time I experienced this - I was riding down Elliots Way, in the Snowy Mountains. There was gravel on the road and I was going into a corner way too fast (my impression at the time anyway). In an instant, knew if I hit the guard rail, I would sail down, down, down and die, so I had to tip in and low side. In that split second, I *knew* I was going to low side, slam into the bike and guard rail and probably break several bones and it was going to hurt, but that was better than sailing off the side of a close-to-sheer drop. So I tipped it in hard and took a deep breath waiting for the impact. Before I even finished drawing the breath in, the bike had carved around the corner beautifully and I glimpsed a whole new world of riding that might be possible... And then I got the shakes (delayed reaction).
But the fact that I tipped it in hard, "knowing" that how far I was leaning would result in a low side, as it was "way too far" over, only to find the bike planted solidly and turning nicely, well, it made me realise that my perception of what was leaning too far was waaaaaaay different from what in reality is leaning too far over. And maybe that might be the same in your case?

So, I second (third, fourth, fifth?) the comments about more rider training. I highly recommend Twist of the Wrist 1 & 2 (if you can overlook the cheesiness), and also maybe Level 1 Superbike School. And even though you've copped a bit of curry in this thread, know that we're all glad you came out of it with so little damage! Live and learn :)


Totally agree, and in many ways your example is very similar. In my case the scenario was that I wasn't going to make it around the corner "in my lane" and I had seen an oncoming car. So I also took the lesser of two evils and decided that the bike was either turning in right then and there (ie before the car arrives) or I was sliding off into the dirt before the car arrives. I understand closing speed & knew I simply didn't want to be at a cornering limit any closer to the oncoming car. I agree now that at that "oh s**t" moment I should not have bothered with the brake and just tipped it in harder - at the end of the day the worst case is exactly the same result (low side) and it probably would have made it around. Experience/training, etc./etc.

But even though I crashed the bike I missed the car by a reasonable distance so I still actually consider myself lucky & fortunate. As you say: lived and learnt. I now think the bike slid down the road and must have actually struck the car (which is why it has a broken wheel), the strange part is that there is no other damage to the bike that would suggest such a forceful impact - nor did the driver make any mention of this when he stopped to see if I was OK or when he returned home about 20 min later. It was a 4WD so maybe it clipped the edge of the bull bar or something like that. Still odd.

BTW in answer to some other posts I wasn't lane riding - I actually do know about entry/apex/exit lines (1:27:07 around Mallala in my sub 3L road car) and ride as such. However the photos do not adequately describe the mid-corner road damage. I will try and get a video one day, but whilst waiting for the tow truck I watched as car's bounced & swayed as they hit the dip, it's not a nice corner. I think one poster suggested multiplying the posted speed x2 and then +20 km/h - so they are suggesting it is a 110km/h corner. Well thanks for that advise but I'll wait until I see them ride around the corner at that speed first.

In my case as soon as I saw the road damage I knew I had stuffed up the entry speed because I simply did not want to ride through it tipped right over - I guess it's the same feeling one has when they see gravel in the middle of a corner? I didn't have a cliff but I did have spare road (other lane) so I tried to avoid the dip by strightening the bike & widening the cornering line (but still caught enough of it to bump the bike), and then I saw the oncoming car & realised that there was now a big problem. I was already leaning off so tipped it over as far as I dared, but that was still not enough which is why I *believe* I made a deliberate decision to apply rear brake to try and turn the further. I didn't stomp on it or anything silly like that and it did actually pull the front end in (I can recall the front tyre turning inside the white dividing lines), but being a noob I didn't get off the brake at that point and the combination of forces was just too much for the tyre grip so away she went. And the slide was noticeably quicker than I recall from my dirt bike days, it basically just goes....splat. When I look at the photo there isn't much distance from the start of the slide to the point where the peg starts scraping, so I'm thinking I must have been tipped over a "reasonable" amount...but, like you say, once I had gotten to that point I should have just tipped it even more. From the photo it also looks the slide started at the crown of the road which would also make sense as to why I lost grip at exactly that point - I'll have to go back and have a look at the road cambers to confirm.

Should I have tried to hold my cornering line & ride through worst of the dip? Who knows, maybe - but the reality is I shouldn't have got myself into that stupid situation in the first place. I already knew that, and the reason for my original post was that I didn't understand the physics of the rear-end slide. The Bosch videos were most educational there and I've now got plenty of time to watch the Twist of the Wrist videos! As mentioned I'm not an automotive fan of electronic driving aids - I know how to cadence brake and truly believe it is better than ABS. But I also recognise that that is a purist/racing view - there is no question that ABS saves accidents & lives and it is simply to difficult to educate every driver to cadence brake - or every rider to ride properly. So for me (and I know it's not going to be for everyone) the option of a ABS system on a bike, especially on the rear wheel, seems like something worth investigating. I had seen some bikes offering ABS as standard but didn't realise you could retro fit.

As for the rear tyre/rim discussion - that's also a discussion separate to the crash. The GPz owners who have made this mod have not had crashes, they have done it simply because they thought it was a better idea. The geometry change (1" lower at the rear) with the zzr600 rim has already been noted, however from my investigations this could probably be corrected relatively easily. I've no problem with making *minor* changes that make things better, so I'm still thinking of going with that one for the GPz, especially I don't think many people would even realise it was a change.

Thanks to everyone for helping - its been great and I don't actually feel like such a tool anymore - even though I had clearly been one. And whilst I like to respond where possible, many posts are now obviously not reading my original question regarding the accident physics (answered) so I might have to leave the education/training/could have made it/should have made it posts alone from here on, but are still most interested to hear technical discussions on the pros or cons of rim/tyre change and ABS.
User avatar
lotii10396
Warming up
Warming up
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am
Location: Unley SA
Bike: GPz900
State: South Australia

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby robracer » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:48 pm

" I think one poster suggested multiplying the posted speed x2 and then +20 km/h - so they are suggesting it is a 110km/h corner"
I think you would find quite a few members up for the challenge :kuda:
User avatar
robracer
Team Bullet
 
Posts: 15338
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: Port Macquarie
Bike: ZX6R
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby vanrootn » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:09 pm

Where is this corner/road? Looks like Adel - Lobethal road (basket range)
User avatar
vanrootn
KSRC Member
KSRC Member
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: Adelaide, SA
Bike: Z1000
State: South Australia

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby 6maniac » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:13 am

FFS ... Do a course, spare us the endless analysis based on your car experience, then come back and share the lessons learnt.

And try to keep the feedback to 3 paragraphs of less than 20 words ...
I've spent over 40 years of my life riding bikes .... the rest of it, I wasted ..
If it's got wheels or tits, it's gonna give you trouble !
HCST #2
Team Black '09 ..... R.I.P. - 2011.
Back in Black....2011.
User avatar
6maniac
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
 
Posts: 5019
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: Hawkesbury
Bike: Z750
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby z900/zx9 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:33 am

6maniac wrote:FFS ... Do a course, spare us the endless analysis based on your car experience, then come back and share the lessons learnt.

And try to keep the feedback to 3 paragraphs of less than 20 words ...

Yep my jet plane does this so my scooter should do this :roll:
http://tinypic.com/hu369k.jpg[/img]
[b]Z900, z900RS , H2 Ninja 1000 Supercharged. FPV Supercharged Pursuit ute..
User avatar
z900/zx9
KSRC Contributor
KSRC Contributor
 
Posts: 2772
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:33 pm
Location: Kawasakiville Victoria

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby lotii10396 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:41 pm

Was recently speaking with a wrecker in Sydney who said he owns 3 GPz900r and has done the rear wheel mod on all of them, one even with a zx9r rear rim He highly recommends the change so I think that has made up my mind.

The road is the Tooperang Road - I was travelling from the Mt Compass end. When I get back home I will try and take a video of my car driving through the corner (with different lines & speed) for those who might want to take up the 110km/h challenge. Of course they would have to stay in their own lane.... The only issue is that these riders now know there is road damage in the middle of the corner, have probably seen the photos (and maybe even the video if I make one) so it will never really be a fair comparison.

The forum has provided me with insight and answers to my original question re: sliding - again thanks to everyone who helped, much appreciated. I admit I might go on a bit, but maybe the details will be useful for other noob riders like myself or for those thinking of getting back into bikes. The point I am trying to make is that when you have several negative things all happening at the same time it quickly it goes pear shaped when you are a noob rider like myself - for *all* of the reasons listed above by everyone.

And whilst I recognise that experience & training are vital the biggest problem was myself - I (& I suspect most noobs) simply should not have been riding that way, that soon.

Most of it is irrelevant to advanced experienced riders, so for those who don't like my posts - well, perhaps don't read them and spend your valuable time & insights in replying to other posts?
User avatar
lotii10396
Warming up
Warming up
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am
Location: Unley SA
Bike: GPz900
State: South Australia

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Gav » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:56 pm

Are we certian and has anyone checked to see if lotii10396 is actually Hoffy in disgusise......?
Gav
KSRC Regular
KSRC Regular
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:14 pm
Bike: GPz500
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Nelso » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:23 pm

lotii10396 wrote:The road is the Tooperang Road - I was travelling from the Mt Compass end. When I get back home I will try and take a video of my car driving through the corner (with different lines & speed) for those who might want to take up the 110km/h challenge. Of course they would have to stay in their own lane.... The only issue is that these riders now know there is road damage in the middle of the corner, have probably seen the photos (and maybe even the video if I make one) so it will never really be a fair comparison.


You'd be surprised how fast a good rider would be able to go through that corner. Your sense of speed on a bike is still distorted because the sensation is still new, but they are far more capable through corners than you can possibly imagine at this point in your riding. Casey Stoner toyed with a V8 Supercar last year at the Top Gear Festival on a standard CBR1000 to give you some idea of how capable a good rider is on a modern bike. I wouldn't bother videoing the corner in a car either as there is no comparison between a bike and a car on how they would handle the bumps and what line they would take through it.
Green '08 ZRX1200 Road bike
Green 2012 ZX10 Track/race bike
Green '89 H1 ZXR750 race bike
'89 RMX250 motard race bike
2015 YZ450
2017 KTM EXC300
User avatar
Nelso
Team Grinder
 
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:22 pm
Location: Wollongong
Bike: ZRX
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Leanne » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:23 pm

What 6maniac said!!!
Road '10 ZX10R
Dirt '99 KLX250
Race '90 CBR400
User avatar
Leanne
KSRC Member
KSRC Member
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Wollongong
Bike: ZX10R
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Cath » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:40 pm

I love how after all is said and done, you spoke to a wrecker and have decided to spend your money on the rear wheel mod, instead of rider training :lol:
Road: 2005 ZX10R - not named yet
Road: 2008 Z750 - Kwak
Track: 2006 ZX6R - Yoshi (with a very Genki undertail)
User avatar
Cath
KSRC Addict
KSRC Addict
 
Posts: 3480
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:08 pm
Location: Yarramalongwayaway
Bike: ZX10R
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby lotii10396 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:07 pm

Thanks to everyone for their help. I kinda feel that the original points of my posts are being a bit lost (even by myself), and a lot of comments aren't even relevant anymore. I'm sure most of us have got better things to do than be negative, so I'm moving my thoughts up to my site and will be leaving this thread as done and dusted. Cheers!

http://www.supersymmetry.com.au/GPz/noob_rider_crash.htm
User avatar
lotii10396
Warming up
Warming up
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am
Location: Unley SA
Bike: GPz900
State: South Australia

PreviousNext

Return to Riding Technique Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron