noob rider crash...

Discuss riding techniques, styles and tips here.

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby z900/zx9 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:54 am

Jonnymac wrote:
Wattie wrote:Or you suspension is old and shit and couldn't deal with the corrugations properly.



This combined with a lock of the rear over a corrugation, wouldn't have been enough to flat spot your tyre so you wouldn't be able to tell that way.

Would've been a split second and then you were sliding down the road......

Giving up on this one wants to change the bike not change the skills ;)
http://tinypic.com/hu369k.jpg[/img]
[b]Z900, z900RS , H2 Ninja 1000 Supercharged. FPV Supercharged Pursuit ute..
User avatar
z900/zx9
KSRC Contributor
KSRC Contributor
 
Posts: 2774
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:33 pm
Location: Kawasakiville Victoria

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Jonnymac » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:44 am

z900/zx9 wrote:
Jonnymac wrote:
Wattie wrote:Or you suspension is old and shit and couldn't deal with the corrugations properly.



This combined with a lock of the rear over a corrugation, wouldn't have been enough to flat spot your tyre so you wouldn't be able to tell that way.

Would've been a split second and then you were sliding down the road......

Giving up on this one wants to change the bike not change the skills ;)

Thought I'd give it one more op...
User avatar
Jonnymac
KSRC Contributor
KSRC Contributor
 
Posts: 1192
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:33 pm
Bike: ZX6R
State: Victoria

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby dilligaf » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:54 am

That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba.... Hunter S. Thompson.
User avatar
dilligaf
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
 
Posts: 5362
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 8:24 am
Location: Melbourne
Bike: Z900
State: Victoria

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby lotii10396 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:57 am

FWIW I don't mind a bit of flaming - it's expected on forums. I'm comfortable with my analysis and whilst I'm not happy with my pre-crash thinking (over-confident) I'm happy with both the bike and, apart from speed, my riding decisions.

1. Entry speed - look, truth be told it was probably more like 70-80km/h than 60km/h. The 45km/h sign should have been the warning, as from the top of the hill it looks a glorious left-hand sweeper so the thought does flash through your mind as to "why is it posted so slow?". Of course I ignored that flashing light bulb and was going at what I thought was a manageable speed for the corner, but you can't see the mid-corner road damage until you are right on it. It's then you realise why it is posted at 45km/h....... This road has been is used for plenty of closed-road car rallies - and this is the corner which apparently creates many race car crashes - and road accidents as well. It simply looks a lot faster than it is, and reinforces that since I didn't know the road so should have been erring on the side of caution, posted signs or not.

http://www.supersymmetry.com.au/GPz/photo1web.jpg

2. Suspension - It's effectively a mid-corner spoon drain, so as far as I understand (and from watching the cars go through it) the suspension physics are the same - as you enter the dip the springs slightly expand, then they compress as they come up the other side of the dip, and then the suspension rebounds. I don't think any bike of any generation is going to like that mid-corner. BTW the bike has a virtually brand-new Hagon rear shock installed, and I'm not convinced that the "old" suspension has got anything to do with it, but I'm open to technical discussions (apart from lower sprung weight & tyre advances which are obvious modern advances) as to how & why newer bikes might handle this scenario better.

Thanks to everyone for contributing, as mentioned I now understand why it was the rear that went not the front. The mental transition from cars to bikes was actually a lot harder than I thought, so in a way this was a crash I needed to have - it has instantly made me a far, far better rider because now (hopefully) I will be thinking like a bike rider - not a car driver. And whilst I acknowledge that the standard GPz rim/tyre should have more than sufficient grip, I'm 99% sure I will proceed with the zzr600 rear rim upgrade as I need to get another rim/tyre anyway, and the extra 28% of rim width (plus grippier tyre options) is kinda comforting....

http://gpzrear.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/1-17-rear-wheel-conversion-for-gpz900r.html
User avatar
lotii10396
Warming up
Warming up
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am
Location: Unley SA
Bike: GPz900
State: South Australia

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby dilligaf » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:13 pm

If you want to survive on the road, you ride to the distance you can see.

think you are looking for excuses for basic skill errors
That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba.... Hunter S. Thompson.
User avatar
dilligaf
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
 
Posts: 5362
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 8:24 am
Location: Melbourne
Bike: Z900
State: Victoria

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby lotii10396 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:23 pm



Mmmm..... I've always been pretty negative to electronic driving aids for cars, but I have now got a slightly different perspective regarding bikes so will definitely investigating this one - thanks. However the Bosch promo makes curious reading though. Whilst the system might let one "brake hard whilst leaning into a bend on a slippery road" isn't this a case of "changing the bike not the rider" and promoting riding behaviour that is "not" generally considered as safe?

For me the benefit of this system (and a bigger rear tyre) is that it gives you reserve in an emergency situation......
User avatar
lotii10396
Warming up
Warming up
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am
Location: Unley SA
Bike: GPz900
State: South Australia

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby lotii10396 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:25 pm

dilligaf wrote:If you want to survive on the road, you ride to the distance you can see.

think you are looking for excuses for basic skill errors


Mate I've already said it was 99% my fault - if you read the original posts I have said this all along but did not understand why it was a rear-end low slide *not* the front.
User avatar
lotii10396
Warming up
Warming up
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am
Location: Unley SA
Bike: GPz900
State: South Australia

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby dilligaf » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:40 pm

lotii10396 wrote:Mate I've already said it was 99% my fault - if you read the original posts I have said this all along but did not understand why it was a rear-end low slide *not* the front.


front tucked and the rear came around?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BfwFw_vrQY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX9jUWRqr-4

this is one where the rear went

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qi2sq94aKA
That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba.... Hunter S. Thompson.
User avatar
dilligaf
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
 
Posts: 5362
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 8:24 am
Location: Melbourne
Bike: Z900
State: Victoria

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby Gav » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:18 pm

Next..!!!
Gav
KSRC Regular
KSRC Regular
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:14 pm
Bike: GPz500
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby robracer » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:19 pm

lotii10396 wrote: For me the benefit of this system (and a bigger rear tyre) is that it gives you reserve in an emergency situation......


Sorry to hear about the off lotii, not good at all when it happens, I wanted to see what you really meant when you mentioned tyre size?
I doubt a bigger rear tyre would help...... when you talk about reserve do you mean rubber past your chicken strips? I doubt you are using all the tyre to start with so the tyre size would be irrelevant in this case.
There are a few of us that race on skinny tyres & 18 inch rims with little choice for tyre or compounds, works just fine all the way to the edges ;)
Skinny tyres generally tend to have more surface area / they curve around more so if its contact patch you are after you shouldn't run out at all :D

Oh & there is a wealth of knowledge to be found round here, plenty of opinions either way, we are here to help in whatever capacity possible ;)
User avatar
robracer
Team Bullet
 
Posts: 15338
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: Port Macquarie
Bike: ZX6R
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby paulsj » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:24 pm

I always thought those yellow road speed signs were meant to be doubled and add 20 for motorcycles? Get off the brakes chin up look past the exit go and and hit that corner 10 more times! Brakes will only make you crash in a corner.
User avatar
paulsj
KSRC Member
KSRC Member
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:37 pm
Location: melbourne
Bike: ZX9R
State: Victoria

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby lotii10396 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:54 pm

robracer wrote:
lotii10396 wrote: For me the benefit of this system (and a bigger rear tyre) is that it gives you reserve in an emergency situation......


Sorry to hear about the off lotii, not good at all when it happens, I wanted to see what you really meant when you mentioned tyre size?
I doubt a bigger rear tyre would help...... when you talk about reserve do you mean rubber past your chicken strips? I doubt you are using all the tyre to start with so the tyre size would be irrelevant in this case.
There are a few of us that race on skinny tyres & 18 inch rims with little choice for tyre or compounds, works just fine all the way to the edges ;)
Skinny tyres generally tend to have more surface area / they curve around more so if its contact patch you are after you shouldn't run out at all :D

Oh & there is a wealth of knowledge to be found round here, plenty of opinions either way, we are here to help in whatever capacity possible ;)


OK, definitely confused, which is why I like using forums! I totally understand that a 150/80x18" tyre is perfectly fine for road use (or racing) but wouldn't the modern tyre/rim combo (160/70x17") have both more surface area due to its greater radius and therefore more grip? It's not really a question of is there enough grip for normal use, it's more that if I take the exact the same cornering scenario which of these rim/tyres will have most grip in reserve. And if it's not about grip, why do most modern bikes have a 17" rear rim? It's the same reasoning why I'm looking at the mentioned Bosch MSD system. Ideally good riders should never need it, but it's there "in reserve" if you do get caught in a tough situation either through rider error (!) or through something 100% rider uncontrollable - like a car pulling out.

I do understand the argument of "change the rider not the bike" - I truly do. It's the same argument of a tradesman blaming his tools. In my case I have so much to learn & improve it's kinda embarrassing and improving my own riding skills is clearly the highest priority. But what this crash showed me was just how quickly it goes wrong on a bike and, and from the event and the forum posts how few options you have to save a bad situation once you are there. I am realistic enough to know that there are accidents that could (and do) happen to the safest & most experienced riders so if there are options that are a cost-effective ways of improving the safety aspect of the bike then, IMHO, these are worth investigating.

FWIW if I didn't need to replace the rear rim I would have just have put on a new tyre, but since it does require replacement I'm also looking long-term so one assumes the tyre choices for the 18" rim will continue to reduce over time?

BTW whilst folks are happy to say that braking was the cause of the slide (so the point is understood), how about some suggestions on what else I could have tried to get the bike around the corner if I was already off the bike & leaning it as far as I dared? At this point I haven't had any other suggestions so trying the rear brake as a last resort still doesn't seem that ridiculous to me.
User avatar
lotii10396
Warming up
Warming up
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am
Location: Unley SA
Bike: GPz900
State: South Australia

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby robracer » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Counter steer to get the bike through the corner or at least start the turn ...... contact patch will also depend on inflation pressure :lol: but another thing I would mention is that a skinny tire will turn in faster where a fat tire will be harder to turn, a skinny tire will also follow road cracks a lot easier then fat tire so there are many pros & cons, when the wheel size changes started way back when, 16 inch did not work but 17inch did & became popular...... have to ask the experts on that one as to why.
User avatar
robracer
Team Bullet
 
Posts: 15338
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: Port Macquarie
Bike: ZX6R
State: New South Wales

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby dilligaf » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:13 pm

Do a course. Most of them teach corner braking.
You would have made your mistakes earlier than when you noticed the problem.
That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba.... Hunter S. Thompson.
User avatar
dilligaf
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
Apprentice Post Whore :-)
 
Posts: 5362
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 8:24 am
Location: Melbourne
Bike: Z900
State: Victoria

Re: noob rider crash...

Postby z900/zx9 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:23 pm

happy1.gif XXbazooka.gif new_sleeping.gif
http://tinypic.com/hu369k.jpg[/img]
[b]Z900, z900RS , H2 Ninja 1000 Supercharged. FPV Supercharged Pursuit ute..
User avatar
z900/zx9
KSRC Contributor
KSRC Contributor
 
Posts: 2774
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:33 pm
Location: Kawasakiville Victoria

PreviousNext

Return to Riding Technique Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron