clutchless downshifting

Discuss riding techniques, styles and tips here.

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby ZX9R Man » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:02 pm

Wattie wrote:What do you think quick shifters do?
And auto blippers?


I'm not familiar with such hardware/software.

Your probably on about the latest machine technology that us mere mortals wouldn't even contemplate on our pre historic bikes.
Can you elaborate on this ?
You have to realise that some, maybe most, don't track or have the circle of friends of like minds to know about race gear for the road.
I certainly don't.
Willing to learn though. :D
User avatar
ZX9R Man
KSRC Member
KSRC Member
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:24 am
Bike: ZX9R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby BrettZZR » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:59 pm

A little knowledge might be a dangerous thing here, but...

Bikes (certainly our 'pre-historic' ones, and I have no reason to think the new stuff is any different) have a 'crash-change' transmission. It simply wont swap until the speed differential and the torque being applied drops off. Certainly clutchless up shifting done correctly is as smooth as and will have no ill effects on the transmission. Down-shifts is harder to do well, and I'm not sure if it's harder still when really 'on it' or if it's easier then. I'm not a good enough rider to say.

(-8
User avatar
BrettZZR
VIP MEMBER
VIP MEMBER
 
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:44 pm
Location: Perth
Bike: ZZR1100
State: Western Australia

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby Wattie » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:37 am

Quick shifter works by sending a signal from your gear lever when pressed/lifted to cut fuel and or spark to then engine to take the load off the transmission momentarily which allows the gear to change quickly.

Auto blipper is similar set up, except when you press/lift the gear lever it automatically blips the throttle a preset amount to take load off the transmission and allow it to change into the lower gear.

These can be set up with relatively simple timing software.
The auto blipper obviously requires a fly by wire throttle. Which most newer bikes have.

The actual hardware inside the gear box is no different.
Wattie #55
ZX10R "The Crim"
ZX10R "Gumby"
Proudly Supported by Allfixed Automotive 9634 1455
sam & srt, survived
RGM, left a message
User avatar
Wattie
VIP MEMBER
VIP MEMBER
 
Posts: 10039
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: Bligh Park
Bike: ZX10R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby Wattie » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:41 am

Watch "Ducati Panigale Auto Blip Down Shifting" on YouTube
Ducati Panigale Auto Blip Down Shifting: https://youtu.be/5MLyvSqdLmU
Wattie #55
ZX10R "The Crim"
ZX10R "Gumby"
Proudly Supported by Allfixed Automotive 9634 1455
sam & srt, survived
RGM, left a message
User avatar
Wattie
VIP MEMBER
VIP MEMBER
 
Posts: 10039
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: Bligh Park
Bike: ZX10R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby tim » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:27 pm

:shock: beast
2008 ZX6R Special Edition
User avatar
tim
VIP MEMBER
VIP MEMBER
 
Posts: 5815
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: Sydney, NSW
Bike: ZX6R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby ZX9R Man » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:30 pm

Yeah that is a cool video.

I never knew this auto blip system existed. Been out of the game for a while and I don't have any mates in the racing scene either.

So it changes gears automatically it seems by looking at the video and it also dowshifts when within a certain rev range. Pretty cool. Nice solid gear changes and the sound of that Duke !! Yes pleeeze !!

More gimmicky for street bikes but probably more useful in a race scenario when every hundredth of a second is needed.

IMHO I think this isn't needed for the street. Nice talking point, something different yes, but I wouldn't have it on a bike. Again my opinion.

Say something went wrong with the system and it decides to downshift whilst doing 200 :shock: give or take a few kays... ;) No thank you.

I think that manufacturers are tipping too much technology into bikes. I'm talking strictly the electronic stuff, everything else is great, such as engineering improvements. Better suspension, engines, ABS brakes, structural integrity etc.. you know what I mean.

Do you guys actually use this system on the street ?
User avatar
ZX9R Man
KSRC Member
KSRC Member
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:24 am
Bike: ZX9R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby tim » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:05 pm

He is shifting with his foot, it's not an automatic transmission. ;)
2008 ZX6R Special Edition
User avatar
tim
VIP MEMBER
VIP MEMBER
 
Posts: 5815
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: Sydney, NSW
Bike: ZX6R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby ZX9R Man » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:15 pm

Oh ok. I wasn't so sure cos he sat there statue like between runs and no particular flinching moves. Couldn't tell. I did wonder if he was in fact he was shifting himself, but the gear changes were so smooth and concise it led me to think otherwise.
It must have a smooooth shift. :oops:

Again. I don't know much about this.

Don't hate me. :lol:
User avatar
ZX9R Man
KSRC Member
KSRC Member
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:24 am
Bike: ZX9R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby tim » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:29 pm

:) Not hating man, I didn't no much about it until this thread either. You can see his left leg/upper body flex slightly above the tank every time he changes. The bike has auto blip on down change and a quick shifter as Wattie explained (see below).

Obviously a lot of us will probably will never change gear like this. For each incremental increase in bike technology some people will embrace it, most will continue to ride what they have, and some will lament the loss of the "good old days" where bikes had tube tyres, or carbies, or no abs etc etc. Development is continuous, and a bit like the music you listened to when you were a teenager, some people favour the bike technology they learnt to ride with or have currently. Nothing wrong with that, it's human nature, but it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with moving ahead with new technology 4robot.gif

Wattie wrote:Quick shifter works by sending a signal from your gear lever when pressed/lifted to cut fuel and or spark to then engine to take the load off the transmission momentarily which allows the gear to change quickly.

Auto blipper is similar set up, except when you press/lift the gear lever it automatically blips the throttle a preset amount to take load off the transmission and allow it to change into the lower gear.

These can be set up with relatively simple timing software.
The auto blipper obviously requires a fly by wire throttle. Which most newer bikes have.

The actual hardware inside the gear box is no different.
2008 ZX6R Special Edition
User avatar
tim
VIP MEMBER
VIP MEMBER
 
Posts: 5815
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:12 pm
Location: Sydney, NSW
Bike: ZX6R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby Nelso » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:34 am

ZX9R Man wrote:Do you guys actually use this system on the street ?


Some do, but it's not really necessary on the street, which is why I ride a steel framed, twin shocked, outdated lump, on the road. On the track, it makes a big difference; a quick shifter and traction control can drop up to a couple of seconds a lap. It is a huge advantage having a more modern bike with these gizmo's on the track.

I do see the advantage of having traction control, anti lock brakes and slipper clutches on road bikes for the ham fisted noobs that can't ride but insist on riding 180HP weapons, though. ;)
Green '08 ZRX1200 Road bike
Green 2012 ZX10 Track/race bike
Green '89 H1 ZXR750 race bike
'89 RMX250 motard race bike
2015 YZ450
2017 KTM EXC300
User avatar
Nelso
VIP MEMBER
VIP MEMBER
 
Posts: 3691
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:22 pm
Location: Wollongong
Bike: ZRX
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby ZX9R Man » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:57 am

All valid points there gents.
I thank you all for the great insight.
Now I've learned another thing. :kuda:
User avatar
ZX9R Man
KSRC Member
KSRC Member
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:24 am
Bike: ZX9R
State: New South Wales

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby bonester » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:22 am

Clutch is there for a reason. I kind of reckon the manufacturers probably know best and it seems like a waste of money if you don't use it. :) If you can't manage the bike while you pull the clutch in and blip the throttle to down change you should probably be riding a scooter.

Twist of the wrist is written by a bunch of masturbation marketers who want to make you feel like a superbike racer. It's all a wank and really....on the road....who cares.

Cynical old fart signs off..........

I do see the advantage of having traction control, anti lock brakes and slipper clutches on road bikes for the ham fisted noobs that can't ride but insist on riding 180HP weapons, though. ;)


Couldn't have said it better. 8)
2 X ZRX1200R 4 X ER6N, GT550, 1988 ZX-10, 4 X GPZ250R, 4 X GPZ900R and GPZ750R :) Yeah I like Kawasakis.
bonester
KSRC Contributor
KSRC Contributor
 
Posts: 2075
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Toowoomba/Ipswich Queensland

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby Shifty » Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:59 pm

I've owned something like 15 bikes and clutchless shifted up and down on the road on every one and I've never had a sump full of engine or transmission parts.

If you are at low rpm then the difference in shaft speed is minimal so it will snick in just like any normal shift. If you are at anything but low rpm, rocking the throttle ever-so-slightly will unload the gearset and - again - it will just drop back to the next gear no problems.

All of that said, I don't do clutchless downshifts when 'sport' riding (ie. high rpm or later braking) though. Firstly higher rpms amplify the risk of missing a gear, and secondly whatever the risk of missing a gear is or is not, the feeling is very unnerving at the best of times, much less when barrelling into a corner and having to hold the clutch in stroker-style while tipping it in.
User avatar
Shifty
KSRC Regular
KSRC Regular
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:04 pm
Location: Brisbane
Bike: ZX12R
State: Queensland

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby Juggy » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:40 am

I have clutchless downshifted sometimes but was always unsure as to whether it was causing any damage..
Some actual answers would be great on this.
Any mechanics or those with solid info to share on this?
This is my signature and it can say whatever I want.
Juggy
KSRC Member
KSRC Member
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:09 am
Location: Townsville
Bike: ZX10R
State: Queensland

Re: clutchless downshifting

Postby Gosling1 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:35 pm

at low speeds it will be fine - its the high-speed stuff which can cause issues. Having a slipper clutch can help, but even with one of these - on the track I don't think that clutchless downshifts are a good idea ....

8)
".....shut the gate on this one Maxie......it's the ducks guts !!............."
User avatar
Gosling1
Team Donut
Team Donut
 
Posts: 13823
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Anarchy Road
Bike: Z900
State: ACT

PreviousNext

Return to Riding Technique Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests