900r ignition coils

[lotii10396]

A bit of info for noobs like me :

Adelaide delivered prices

1. 2x Dyna coil + leads + plug covers $240 need to try an get original caps with dirt/water covers onto the new leads.....went this way btw
2. wemoto.com 2x new coils $154 - thought about it. Seem to recall delivery can take 2-4 weeks though....
3. Crystalcreek ~$80 used coils and leads - Ron a very good guy, but decided to get new units

Manual (both Haynes & Kawasaki) troubleshooting notes:

1. Resistance values for IC ignitor are so wrong (only 16/56 ok) that you wouldnt think it would work at all - so probably need dealer equipment to check this properly. Expensive bit so won't be replacing unless completely stuffed...
2. Resistance measures for both coils also within spec - but I could smell one of them was half-roasted. So again home workshop resistance values don't really tell much. I measured secondary winding directly off coils (As per Haynes, Kawasaki say pull plug covers off and measure leads) and found it took 2-3 min of jiggling the multimeter probes before I could get a reading. One coils primary measure reading starts high and then drops and stabilises within spec, the other just reads within spec.

Riding symptoms:

After big, big ride to MotoGP (2.5k) symptoms showed on final 500 km run back into Adelaide. But bike OK for local varied throttle rides until yesterday where on highway again.

Bike would splutter & run crap and/or stall as you slowed down after a long runs at constant RPM (ie coming into a town) and needs 5 min break before will run properly again. Occasional "bouncing" of tacho major hint it was ignition related not fuel. Gets progressively worse as you ride, 100km- stop, then 80-stop, then 50, etc. When OK bike revs freely right through rev range, but high rev runs did mean you had to stop quicker - I only made around 20km for the last run which was disconcerting - though fortunately had reached my destination (Corny Point).

Although bike not running perfect I had to try to get home and by riding at a self-imposed 4000rpm limit (less work for ignition system) and stopping every 50km for 5 min (lets ignition bits cool down a bit) was able to ride back 300km without any major hiccups.

Summary

1. Having experienced car coil problems thats what I immediately diagnosed, but as bike has 2 coils I was surprised that having 1 not work properly would stall the engine - I would have just thought rough running.

2. With coils out of bike for a couple of hours I now can't smell the difference between them, even though the cooked insulation smell was quite distinct earlier. Of course I've now got no idea which was which, but I'll see if the kids can tell. I then had the thought maybe it was burnt lead insulation I smelt, but I cant tell any difference between them.

Not an issue for me as I'm replacing both, but being more careful to check leads & identify the different coils is something I'll be doing next time. When I get the new coils & leads I'll do resistance measures on these and the old leads and post em up.

[Gosling1]

check the earth lead from the igniter box. Sometimes the insulation on this wire breaks down and causes issues with ignition coils - its worth checking the condition just to take it off the list of possible issues.

One other thing with GPz9's - check the main earth lead from the battery to the back of the block. Its worth undoing the 6mm bolt, spraying the entire innards of the thread with wizards piss, then the bolt - then bolting the earth lead back into place. The importance of good earths on these old bikes cannot be overstated.

[lotii10396]

check the earth lead from the igniter box. Sometimes the insulation on this wire breaks down and causes issues with ignition coils - its worth checking the condition just to take it off the list of possible issues.

One other thing with GPz9's - check the main earth lead from the battery to the back of the block. Its worth undoing the 6mm bolt, spraying the entire innards of the thread with wizards piss, then the bolt - then bolting the earth lead back into place. The importance of good earths on these old bikes cannot be overstated.

One of my previous adventures was a hand-built English sports-car - so I know exactly what you mean regarding good electrics. One of the many gremlins of this car was one pop-up headlight staying in the raised position......which was hilarious to everyone but me! I was tracking down an intermittent non-start problem last week (turned out to be a dislodged clutch switch) and during my trouble-shooting I unplugged the entire fuse panel to have a look see. With the amount of crap on the terminals I was amazed anything was connecting at all. But the bike is 22 years old so in many ways electrical (and ignition) problems are to be expected.

I'll be cleaning any visible earth points when I bolt it all back together, and I'll have a good look at those two earths as well. Thanks.

[lotii10396]

UPDATE:

shop sent me home with a pair of Dyna coils and some 8mm Dyna Wire DW-800 plugged leads. Advice was to "cut and paste" the spark plug well cover boots so that water & crap don't get into the wells. Easy? Not! Old cables are 7mm and that 1mm difference makes it nigh-impossible to get the boots on. After boiling water, soap, silicon spray & lots (& lots) of cursing I eventually heated up a screwdriver over the gas stove and enlarged the holes in the cover boots......

When I got home I noticed that the coils were 3.0 Ohm, but I recalled that the http://www.gpzzone.co.uk recommend 2.2 Ohm & OEM spec is between 1.8 - 2.8 Ohm. Bike shop said they've used 3.0 forever and the Oz supplier (Serco Motorsport) didn't have any technical info except "that's the recommendation for the bike." Hmm, now I realise that the 3.0 coils would still work but as it is rated higher than spec there must be a question of dwell time (whether the coils would fully charge), so I wanted to know which were best.

The US parent company (dynaonline) were *FANTASTIC*. Answered all of my emailed questions immediately with lots of technical info. They recommended the 2.2 Ohm coil as the 3.0 Ohm coils "may" have a small output loss. Made sense to me and my bike shop was happy to switch them over. I know the difference between 2.2 & 3.0 is probably in-significant and only apparent at high revs, but these are more expensive than OEM replacement coils and the company does make different versions - so surely it can't be a case of one size fits all? They also recommended 7mm copper core leads that would screw directly into the OEM caps & resistors (saving me chopping up OEM caps worth 38 pounds each...) BUT I did have significant corrosion in the resistor connection for plug #1 AND the new leads don't need resistor caps or resistor plugs. A good thing.

Would the 3.0 Ohm coils last longer? Probably, as they would be less likely to be sitting in a fully-charged state and therefore run cooler. But the documented ordinary OEM coils lasted 22 years and 58,000km, so if the Dyna coils last even half that I'll be happy, or more likely forgotten by then....

I'm also sticking with my "remanufactured" leads, although I did wonder if the 7mm Dyna Wire equivalents would have been just as good and saved me a lot of head-ache. Also note that the excellent "spring-clip onto plug thread" connection of the OEM leads is now the standard "clip-on" bullet type (Dyna supply the bullets which was a nice touch). Coils do fit into original mounting points but are tight, and the way they fit with clearance for the cabling means that the primary winding connections are now facing the front of the bike, not the rear. Of course the wiring loom is to short to accommodate this.....Oh well, can't expect it all to be easy I suppose!

FYI during my googling I did find an NGK KA32 Power Lead set that has new wires & caps specifically for the GPz900r. But only available from Japanese suppliers (a common gripe according to NGK Oz), none of whom ship internationally without having to go through another Japanese shipping business, so all up they would probably cost around $200 landed.....

[lotii10396]

Update:

Good

coils + leads are excellent. Obviously hard to compare with new OEM but 3 clear improvements.
1. Low throttle response noticably faster, makes low speed riding much easier
2. Now can notice a power surge around 5000rpm
3. Bike would now easily redline if I let it.

The bike has always been plenty powerful enough for me, and I would have described the power delivery as linear. But is is clearly cleaner and faster revving now.

Bad

Electrical overheating problem *still* there. Got 100kms of spirited riding yesterday, got 20 km this morning. Bike starts running crap (like its flooding), stalls, and then takes 5 min or so to fire up. Again fuel-efficient, legal speed riding doesn't seem to create enough heat to create the problem so it let's me get home.

As soon as I jumped off the bike checked alternator and its fine at 13.5v. So any other thoughts for next bit to replace?

Also Gos, how do I undo that bolt *without* having to remove air box?

[lotii10396]

Decided to replace the ignitor unit, even if just to exclude it from the conversation! Mine has 3 sets of numbers:

21119-1111 & J4T0174 which are the Kawasaki numbers

1613 - 4-digit seems like a production run/lot number reference

But I noticed that ebay units from older (eg 1984=5714, 1987-87=9705) bikes the 4-digit number is higher, which doesn't follow chronologically (mine 1991).

Maybe mine has been replaced before, maybe it doesnt mean anything? With aftermarket over $500 & new-in-box over $400 I'll think Ill just go used (!) so I know there's a bit of luck involved with these parts. But just wondering if anyone knew if the numbers gave some inkling as to age....

[lotii10396]

Oops - should read 21119-1111 & J4T01274

[Gosling1]

.......Also Gos, how do I undo that bolt *without* having to remove air box?.......

results from new coils sound good but clearly something is still amiss......

the bolt I was talking about - is not at the battery end (although you should check that at some point as well.....

its the other end - the end which bolts to the cases. This is a 6mm bolt which earths the -ve battery lead. Usually - it is never touched, unless the motor is pulled out of the frame. GPz9's seemed more prone to issues with this earth point than other kwakka models ? All you need to do is find this bolt (located at the rear of the motor so it can be a bit of prick to spot, especially if the area is dirty) - undo the bolt, clean the end of the lead, spray the threaded hole in the cases full of wizards piss - and re-fit the earth lead.

This just ensures that the main earth to the motor is as good as you can get it. Very important on old bikes ( and cars, as you know )

[lotii10396]

Thanks Gos, have found the bolt OK but head is recessed into the casing so need a socket - and can't get a socket onto it because of the proximity of the air box. And from looking it isn't an easy task to remove the air box? I do want to add an A6 intake into the air box, but at this time don't want to be trying to reconnect up all the rubbers.....So might simply wire a second earth wire and bolt this somewhere else, at least it will take this out of the equation.

New coils are awesome - I used to change up at 7-8000rpm because, basically, I was tired of waiting. Motor now sings right to 10k and would redline easily if I let it. So its a good upgrade anyway, now just have to figure out the ignition problem. My shop wants $200 for a box of a wrecked GTR1000 - ouch for used & no warranty....

[lotii10396]

FYI apparently fine should be using Kawasaki p/n: 21119-1110, apparently 21119-1111 doesn't exist. $721.......

[J.B]

Looks to me like 21119-1110 is the part number from an A1.

The correct part number for an A8 should be 21119-1333. No idea on the differences (if there are any) but the newer one should be a little cheaper too.

[lotii10396]

Looks to me like 21119-1110 is the part number from an A1.

The correct part number for an A8 should be 21119-1333. No idea on the differences (if there are any) but the newer one should be a little cheaper too.

Hiya J.B. Local Kawasaki dealer was the source of the part number - assured me it was specifically for the A8, which mine is, and they couldn't match the 1111 p/n even though that is clearly what is on the bike.. From what I have read the 1111 & 1110 are both 35° advance and differ only in rev limiter. EBay gives no match for 1333 but does list 1113 as being for the 550. Mind giving me your source for the P/N?

[J.B]

http://www.kawasaki-motors.com/parts_cat/index.html

You can look up the parts diagrams or just put in the part numbers and it'll give you a description and model identifier. If it is used on multiple models it'll just give you the latest (I think). Also, it's all in japanese

[lotii10396]

Cool site - though your japanese must better than mine! The 1333 part is for A10 it seems, and googling shows it has a different plug than mine, looks more like a zx10? Which makes sense given the build date of A10. Given the prices (annoying that you can get sent from US wreckers for 1/2 cost of oz businesses....) unless I can get a relatively cheap unit I'm going to try and isolate everything else before replacing this box, so well see how I go. New battery tomorrow.......

[lotii10396]

Update:

Battery was shot - I dont think it had *any* electrolyte in it. OK, feel like a bit of a noob, but bike has been starting fine & it did have a full service only a couple of months ago. I figured they might have checked the battery levels prior to my MotoGP trip, but that's another story. So a nice new AGM battery ($100) and bike seems to be running fine now - just been on a 100km ride through the hills pushing it where possible.

I'm was going to replace the battery anyway ( no idea how old) but what made me take this step was the cost of the IC box (!) & during research I read an article which said apparently under load & high heat internal battery plates can fail and lose electrical connection - which is enough to stall a car or bike motor. Stopping lets the battery cool down and connect up again.

News to me but it does describe my symptoms. But if it was the battery then its pretty hard to diagnose - as the bike never actually loses electrical power & I could always still crank the motor. But cranking is nowhere near as energetic as it is with the new battery.

So it will be awhile before I can do the long highway runs and I'll update then.