Supercharged!

An old Streetbike magazine had a blown VTR1000 in it. The guy had managed to squeeze it in-between the two cylinders by lifting the tank a bit. It was even on display at the MotoGP last year on Saturday arvo so it's still getting around.

You might be able to contact the mag for the story, or otherwise get the info through their forums. From memory it was a proper (but small) blower though, not a modified turbo.

Thanks guys, Mick Mario and Yoda, I'll look into your ideas. It's gunna be a fun summer.

Matt..you said..
The solution he came to was to run a step pulley system. Two 200% stepups,2:1 driving 2:1 this gave a total overdrive of 400%.

yep..at 7000rpm ..you get approx..30,000 turbo rpm...which works
not impossible...
bears thinking about...

cheers

..snip...
The worst thing you can say to a hot rodder is "that can't be done"
We"ve put a tunnel rammed LS7 454 in a ford Anglea before.
..snip

phharrrk Matt

in my silly youth...we put a turbo 2 litre Ford Cosworth
engine (yep the racing engine jobbie ) in a Ford Anglia panel van
with a cutdown XR GT diff and 4 speed..
and we thought that was silly.....
an LS7...madness!
(we also stuck the same engine in the 1st model Honda Civic and went
Porsche chasing....that WAS fun...)

but you are correct...on one thing...
never tell a bloke with an idea in his head
and access to a welding torch or lathe...it can't be done
done too many of that in my youth...
to know anything is possible....
based on SOUND ENGINEERING PRINCIPLES...of course
hehe


cheers

..snip...
The worst thing you can say to a hot rodder is "that can't be done"
We"ve put a tunnel rammed LS7 454 in a ford Anglea before.
..snip

in my silly youth...we put a turbo 2 litre Ford Cosworth
engine (yep the racing engine jobbie ) in a Ford Anglia panel van
with a cutdown XR GT diff and 4 speed..

asdfas lkjpoiqpyqwe lknxkzj asdkj asdkh werwes!
what?
what was that?
do we speak english here?

This is just dissappointing - I've always thought of myself as having reasonable mechanical ability and given time can do majority of things.
But damn guys - you've made me feel like I know nothing!
ty

asdfas lkjpoiqpyqwe lknxkzj asdkj asdkh werwes!
what?
what was that?
do we speak english here?

This is just dissappointing - I've always thought of myself as having reasonable mechanical ability and given time can do majority of things.
But damn guys - you've made me feel like I know nothing!
ty

Ty, you are not alone!! Incidentally Matt... you're farken nuts!!

well i must say..it has been fun and sometimes not....
mucking around with things mechanical
lots of skinned knuckles...LOTS of swearing
and lotza other silly things
mind you ...ty
I have had the time (it HELPS to be as old as me!!)
to do these things
and I have been lucky that you could......do some ...
NO speed limits.... NO antipollution rules.....
and I have been lucky to work at Holdens and Dunlop
and got into things...mechanical
btw..
if you did anything REALLY silly, the local sergeant (plod that is)
would give you a kick in the arse and tell you to behave....
can't do that ...nowadays...

can't even begin to think of list of the sortsa things we are discussing
here that i have done...
but I will say...my old man used to take me to the motorracing
as a lil' one.. at circuits that don't exist anymore....
so guess I have oil in the system....


cheers

..snip...in my silly youth...we put a turbo 2 litre Ford Cosworth
engine (yep the racing engine jobbie ) in a Ford Anglia panel van
with a cutdown XR GT diff and 4 speed..
and we thought that was silly.....
an LS7...madness!

Yeah but in hind sight, the cosworth would have been more fun coz you would've had some chance of stopping and turning. Something a BB chev doesn't do well.
What's more fun and actually usable is the T-Bucket. A 392ci Big Block Hemi (rare as rocking horse shit) backed up by an ex-Allan Moffat close ratio toploader (ex Coke trans am Boss 302 'stang) and a 9" out of a Lincoln town car (14" drums stock) all running in a chromo and steel dual plane chassis he(my father) built on the garage floor at home.
The Hemi is solid mounted and has Hilborn mechanical injection. And a home made clutch coz he couldn't find one in the 70's to cope with the torque. Keep in mind this car was built in the olden days and finished racing in '69. ET of 9.98 at 165mph in 'A Altered' class against Ian Splatt(Rachelle's father) in 'The Bounty Hunter', amoung others. All done at top end. Who knows what it woul pull today on modern tyres and the sticky tracks, but similar cars are running 8.0's regularly. He's been playing with the idea of running it in nostelgia class but dosn't want to drive it, just make it go harder and let some one else pilot it. We might do it some time in the next couple of summers.
He finished racing, changed pistons down to 11.5:1, put on some mufflers and mud gaurds. Then he bought the papers and plates, off mate who wrote-off his Hemi powered rod, stamped that chassis # on it and has driven it on the road ever since, dependant on fuel prices.
This car goes a bit. Just don't be next to it when it changes gear. Hehehehehe.
I will try to remember to bring some pics on our next ride.

The amazing thing is that he has never nbeen pulled over in it. Apparently a 60 year old unshaven grandfather with the arse ripped out of there jeans wouldn't hoon.

He'll happily give Bobbi a ride, but she hasn't accepted yet. Apparently vintage cars are boring.

Any one up for a ride on Sunday weather permittig?

Last edited by mattyv74 on Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

ummm..Matt
I used to go and watch Ian Splatt and Ron harrop and Ash MArshall
and the like...... race at Calder
think Ian Splatt is still making wheels...
aaaahhh....the memories......Hilborn mechanical injection......
geezuz...I remember being taught how the change 'the pill' on mechanical injection.....

Top loaders...prick of a gearbox...don't know how they ever got to stay together behind the GTHO's and Mustangs and stuff...
the alloy case version we had behind the turbo Cosworth
was forever blowing the clusters...and finally split the case
(one day in a 'ride'! alongside a Porsche down near Moorabbin airport)
don't think they were ever designed to take 350kw...

and you are right... 392 Hemis??? rare as...more common of course are the 426 Hemis....
and the only real disadvantage these days with BIG hp(forget speed limits and antipollution rules) is the price and quality of petrol...
not allowed to rock up to the airport anymore and fill 'er up with 110 Avgas....
damn.....
Avgas used to smell REAL good on the over-run

cheers

i thought i knew a bit too............

the bastards are farken mad..........

[rant]

its a misconception that turbos produce heat purely because they are attached to a turbine, but because compressing air with a centrifugal compressor causes lotsa heat & friction. sure theres gonna be some heat comming from the turbine, but centrifugal blowers would make it just the same! maybe a TINY bit less heat, but not gonna let you reach crazy boost levels without an intercooler. most vortech kits (for cars) that run more than 8psi need an intercooler. twin-screw blowers dont need a cooler quite as badly cause they are a lot more efficient (and a lot more expencive, if your thinking of cheap blowers then its probably a rootes blower)... centrifugal superchargers (ie, a pully driven turbo compressor) certainly dont produce boost from idle, if anything they take more RPM's to make the same boost as a turbine driven compressor, depending how you gear it... tho not having a huge exhaust restriction might make it a bit less of a slug around idle

another problem is you dont have a wastegate that can control the boost levels across the RPM range, so depending how you set up the ratios on it you can either have lotsa boost down low but be making way too much up top and have stupid temps comming out of the compressor before your near the redline... or have nothing down low, something by midrange and heaps up top .... turbos actually give a very nice flat torque curve when they are matched right. and they arnt purely dependant on RPM's for boost, just exhaust gas flow.

if you matched it up right (maybe put the t3 compressor & housing onto the t2 turbine+housing? or look at what all the bike turbo kits are using..) then you will only have a fairly small rpm band above idle (maybe 1/4 of the range?) where you should stay away from at all times - from launch by using the clutch, and once moving its not hard at all to keep it where it needs to be - unless maybe your trying to come out of a corner in 6th gear doing 40kph

dick datsun's "gator superchargers" were always being talked about on the yahoo group blowthruturbo (i think its called carburetoredturbo now) but i never saw a final product that would honestly be better than a turbo ... and pulleys just arnt meant for that kinda application! proper centrifugal blowers like vortechs use an internal gearbox .... but like i said, a well matched turbo setup on the same engine would have a better powerband than a vortech IMO... a twin-screw blower like a whipple however, thats a different story with a very different price tag


and lets not forget how much easier a turbo is to fit to the bike, just need a custom made exhaust manifold - and they aint that hard to come across.. look how many turbo bikes have been done already! and intercoolers are not hard to fit to bikes, once again, look how many have been done already! ive seen plenty of gix1000's, R1's, fireblades, maaaaaaaannnnnyyy busas etc.... with dirty great big intercooled turbo setups EFI makes things a lot easier, but carby blow-thru setups are not that hard to make work - draw-thru setups im not real fond of, i prefer intercoolers to water/methanol injection setups

and as for adding a pulley to the bikes crank ..... what a 'unt of a lot of trouble to goto just to make a setup that still dosnt work as well as a (much easier) turbo setup


for a wealth of information on the topic, have a look here:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Carburetedblowers/

and if your really keen on silly belt driven items, look here:
http://www.gatorsuperchargers.net/

i dont really agree with a lotta the theories on there tho, and havnt seen any power output claims or even dyno graphs as yet but feel free to buy off him


[/rant]

Stop it.. stop it.. you guys are making my head hurt!!

[rant]

and as for adding a pulley to the bikes crank ..... what a 'unt of a lot of trouble to goto just to make a setup that still dosnt work as well as a (much easier) turbo setup


for a wealth of information on the topic, have a look here:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Carburetedblowers/

and if your really keen on silly belt driven items, look here:
http://www.gatorsuperchargers.net/

i dont really agree with a lotta the theories on there tho, and havnt seen any power output claims or even dyno graphs as yet but feel free to buy off him


[/rant]

Thanks SS, your a champ. I'll do some research and we'll yak some more.

[rant]

its a misconception that turbos produce heat purely because they are attached to a turbine, but because compressing air with a centrifugal compressor causes lotsa heat & friction. sure theres gonna be some heat comming from the turbine, but centrifugal blowers would make it just the same! maybe a TINY bit less heat, but not gonna let you reach crazy boost levels without an intercooler. most vortech kits (for cars) that run more than 8psi need an intercooler. twin-screw blowers dont need a cooler quite as badly cause they are a lot more efficient (and a lot more expencive, if your thinking of cheap blowers then its probably a rootes blower)... centrifugal superchargers (ie, a pully driven turbo compressor) certainly dont produce boost from idle, if anything they take more RPM's to make the same boost as a turbine driven compressor, depending how you gear ...snip
[/rant]

guys some info...based on experience...
back to basics.....
a turbocharger is subject to heat...coz its zorst driven...
the 2 impellers are only a short distance apart
so the one compressing air...is hot MAINLY because of zorst heat
mind you...
anything compressing air..will get warm.. and the outgoing air is therefore
warmer than the air going in..(this applies to turbochargers and any belt driven supercharger..be it Rootes or whipple or whatever...)
but
because superchargers are usually fairly close to the inlet port....
the density of the inlet charge is not affected very much (warm air reduces the density of the inlet charge) and so ppl put Rootes or screw type superchargers in the Vee on V8's or they are the inlet for things like 6 cylinder engines (think norman superchargers)
but turbochargers???
they are a long way from the inlet port so we do need to reduce the temperature of the air...and also because the compressed air from a turbocharger is very hot (as I said, because of the exhaust heat)
so we need to cool it down...hence the intercooler..
you also need to cool the turbo itself....
the better systems (think porsche and SAAB) use oil to lubricate and cool the turbo and they also watercool the turbo... a SAAB for example has an oil lubed and cooled and watercooled turbo (and the water line goes to a separate radiator and the engine has an oil cooler) and an intercooler for the inlet charge...(and the plumbing is amazing!)
a turbocharger is also known as a 'free' compressor as it takes no horsepower to drive, unlike a supercharger(which does require hp to drive it...)
but a turbo also needs a large volume exhaust (with no back pressure)
for maximum effeciency....
it is interesting to note the different applications....
when it comes to forced induction...
aircraft (think Spitfire or Mustang) tend to use Superchargers
diesel trucks and railway locomotives use turbos
cars with Vee engines tend to use superchargers
and cars with inline engines (or flat or boxer engines)
tend to end up with turbos.....

all interesting stuff....

hth

cheers

Last edited by Smitty on Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

Has anyone notices that BOTH Ian's are very technical.

SS: You haven't changed mate good to see.


Now as for my Layman's say on the maters...

The engines rev range, and level of torque, is what I look at if I were to SC or Turbo.. And where you want the power to be...

No point getting a SC in a car if you like to Redline it all the time.
And no point putting a SC on if it doesn't have much bottom end to run it..

So i guess with Bikes, being so high rev'ing, which allows the exhaust pressure to build up, a Turbo would be the Ideal way to go. It's easy to get the rev's up abit to make use of the boost.... But if you're talking about track and solid twisties... Hitting boost may not be the safest way to go, as the power would come on hard when she hits boost.. Where as the SC if set up properly would deliver power much more smoothly...

But I'm guessing you'd only really be doing either for straight line, so the power coming on hard and fast, and possibly affecting handling, may not really be a factor...

Moral of the story,
Buy me a ZX10 and I'll be more than happy...

Dan